Readers — A 73-year-old Michigan man registered as a sex offender for standing buck naked on his porch as children ride by on the school bus has dbsbkthnba
been ordered to move for doing it yet again. But as Sandy Rozek, aka Shelly Stow, points out at her blog With Justice For All:
If reports are true and accurate, most would call him him a dirty old man, including myself. My question is, is it necessary to bring to bear the weight of the state of Michigan’s sex offender registry and the forceful removal of an old man from his home to deal with a dirty old man?
Most of [us]Â remember our own youthful encounters with the dirty old man in the neighborhood. Those of us over the age of forty remember how we dealt with it. We shrieked, we screamed, and we ran for home or school, depending on our destination of the moment. We babbled out to mom or dad or Mrs. Smith what we saw, and we got, quite possibly, minimal reaction.
If it was a small town, we might have heard, “Oh, Mr. Turner’s daughter let him get outside again,†or “Someone needs to tell Sheriff Tate to have a come-to-Jesus talk with Mr. Parker again.†Then we were given a brief explanation that sometimes some people do things when they are old or when they are sick or when they have mental illnesses that people not so afflicted do not do. Then we were told to always run home or to school and tell an adult about it but not to worry about it. My friend told me her mother told her that if it happened again, to point at him and laugh before running away.
In an era when we are convinced no child can safely encounter anything more traumatic than squished jellybean, the idea of trusting our kids to resiliently shrug off an addled old man is considered cavalier — even negligent.
We decided that we needed to protect our children in every situation rather than teach them how to protect themselves. We decided that such people were perverts, and that perverts needed to be registered and shamed, and their families shamed, and the strong arm of the law and of the courts was not only the appropriate way to deal with the situation but the only way.
And we added yet another category of offender to the registry in order to “protect the children.â€
And we continue to teach our children that they are not safe in the world and that they don’t have enough sense to know what to do when something unexpected occurs and that they can’t take care of themselves.
It’s not that I relish the idea of dirty old men mooning school kids. (Or, worse, NOT mooning them.) It’s that I harken back to the chat I had with my friend’s 80-year-old mom who grew up in New York City playing in the parks, unsupervised, with her sister. One day back then a man motioned them over to his car and rolled down the window. Then he pointed at what he wanted them to see. Says the the 80-year-old: “To this day, my sister and I still giggle about it.â€
Kids can roll with a lot more punches than we think. Dotty 73-year-olds thrown out of their homes?
I’m not so sure. – L
An older gentleman. (YOU try finding a copyright- and controversy-free illustration for “Dirty Old Man.â€)
The problem with these sorts of laws is that lawmakers forget that sex offenders have to live somewhere and that forcing them to move creates new problems. Depending on the district where you live, it can be ridiculously impossible to find a place to live if you are a sex offender.
There was a story that broke this summer about a pastor named Ricky Martin who ran a ministry and camp for sex offenders in rural Alabama. He was told he had to break up the camp, which was tragic because for these men, it was the only care and rehabilitation they were getting in a world that wants to ostracize them:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/alabama-shuts-down-churchs-sex-offender-housing
Great coverage, as usual, by Shelly Stowe… sorry I missed it earlier.
For a little more context, I used the power of Google and its maps to get a sense of just how “horrific” this situation might have been.
First, I wondered if Gladstone MI might be a dense town or suburb like Boston or Philly where a person standing on their front stoop was also close to a street where people were able to chat with the neighbors on outdoor rocking chairs. Nope, this is a semi-rural town of under 5,000 people in Upper Michigan, houses set back from streets on suburban-type lots by 40-60 feet.
Next, maybe the houses near the school were multi-story or split-level types where the front stoop might have been elevated enough that a fence would provide little/no cover. Nope, the houses are single-story and/or pre-manufactured types.
OK, so maybe the neighborhood sidewalks put the guy in closer proximity to kids walking or biking past. Again, nope, no sidewalks in the area (unfortunately), past houses or even the school.
Then again, if my kids were on a playground within easy view of an elderly exhibitionist prancing on his front porch, I’d be interested in exploring alternatives. But still again, I’d be disappointed to find the nearest house to the playground is 300 feet away, with a dozen pine trees and a fence between. So, my kids would have had to leave their friends, the swings and jungle gym to cling to, and squint through, the fence in hopes of seeing the guy’s bits beyond the trees.
Finally, maybe the senior guy was also an imposing presence, from his front step, for neighbor kids playing in their own yards. But, again, with plenty of trees and the distances between houses, and the simple fact that families with young kids could easily enough put up their own back-yard fences, tells me that an obnoxious neighbor would be no problem to deal with.
I got — and took! — the opportunity when my kids were young to teach about how some kids (like the pre-schoolers next door for a while in our city neighborhood) had it pretty tough, and yet were not scary. We all learned that terrible things, like the murder of a buddy of mine across the street, can happen, but are much more likely to be between family members than at random. We experienced first-hand that some of the people living in visibly run-down houses on the outside were the most proud, disciplined and generous folks on the block.
It’s just not that hard to put things in perspective as needed — and give kids confidence that they are safe and well cared-for by the adults in their life.
The next report we see will be a 3yo arrested and listed for stripping in the playground. It’s about the same level of “threat”. It’s not traumatic to view the male anatomy unless someone convinces the kid that they are supposed to be traumatized by.
My father was a major sleep walker. One night while we were all staying at my grandmother’s house, he walked upstairs, through the kitchen, through the living room where my cousin and I were sleeping (although not asleep) and out onto the front porch … all totally naked. Then he came back into the living room and lied on the couch for awhile … yes, still naked.
I must have been 10 or 11, which would have made my cousin 12 or 13, maybe 14. Neither of us were traumatized, nor were the neighbors if any saw. My cousin thought it was hysterical and couldn’t wait to tell everyone in the morning. I was somewhat less amused then, but now think it was pretty damn funny.
Today he’d probably be a registered sex offender.
I grew up in that part of the state and am very familiar with that town and that area and it is fairly conservative. That being said, if you stood on your front porch naked, you are going to get the attention of law enforcement. I agree that he doesn’t belong on the SOR or shouldn’t be made to move, but he doesn’t seem to be getting the message that he shouldn’t be doing that.
Knowing the area, I am surprised someone hasn’t tried to have a more “persuasive” conversation with him.
@Wendy–YES! EXACTLY! Seeing a penis is NOT traumatic. Adults making a huge deal of it can be traumatic. Simple: “Oh, Mr. X was naked on his porch…wow, that’s probably not an appropriate place to be naked, huh? Do you want an apple or a peach for snack?” Obviously, answer any questions, but in calm manner and honestly….what is big F’in deal?????
As for the 3-year-old, we did have an incident here in the Phoenix area (and I know I’ve read about others) where a kindergarten incident was labeled as sexual harassment and put into the child’s permanent school record. He pulled his pants down on the playground….OY! I really think some people have learned to turn off their own brains.
My kids did the elementary school version on Greese the musical…even watered down and abridged (no pregnancy scare, no lyrics about cigarettes, etc) my son was cast as Roger a.k.a “Rump” the Mooning Champ of Rydell High. He sang Mooning. When he was cast, he came home and asked me what mooning was….and, “wouldn’t you get arrested?”
He’s a bit of a practical joker and when people said he was “perfectly cast” he was upset at first because he’d never show his butt at school. He woukdnt, but he probably would have 25 years ago. How to explain that although mooning was not appropriate, people didn’t react the same way? Kids on my bus mooned people out the window often…not to mention streaking during football game 1/2 time or the naked quad run in college….
How about those rules that say “not allowed to go within 1000 feet of any place where children may gather”. That means, and is not limited to: public schools, private schools, charter school, day care centers, in home daycares, city parks, water parks, amusement parks, playgrounds, including fast food restaraunts with playgrounds, churches, libraries, movie theaters, malls, entertainment complexes,snow cone stands, pediatricians offices, children’s clothing stores, concert halls, convention centers, sports stadiums, and the list can go on. This means they cannot DRIVE past those place for any reason. This applies to all “sex offenders” regardless of their crime, how long ago it was or if it even involved a child. There is NO WAY possible to adhere to that and still be able to work or even just shop for groceries. And that can be for as long as the rest of the persons life.
“The problem with these sorts of laws is that lawmakers forget that sex offenders have to live somewhere and that forcing them to move creates new problems. Depending on the district where you live, it can be ridiculously impossible to find a place to live if you are a sex offender.”
The unstated purpose of those laws is to drive these people to commit suicide, which a lot of them do.
Others violate parole by getting false IDs and cosmetic surgery, fleeing to parts of the country where they’re not known or fleeing the country altogether.
Another unstated but (for the creators of these laws) welcome side effect is that these people tend up targeted and constantly harassed by vigilante groups with their own “registries” which, unlike the official ones, are never cleared when a registration expires or is found to be in error/overturned by appeal.
And THAT can go as far as being murdered, at which point police will do little because “they had it coming, the dirty pervs”.
They do need to do an assessment of his sanity to see if he can safely live on his own, but he is not a sex offender just from doing that. He is probably senile which is a difference.
I remember in Kindergarten having some man some on the playground and flash the kids. I did not see it but was out there when it happened. Many of my friends saw it. None of them seem traumatized. We were all like “WHAT?!” but that was about it. Some kids were even laughing about it. We certainly did not get counseling or anything.
What are the laws about being naked on your own private property?
I have friends who like to sunbathe nude so they don’t get tan lines, usually on their front or back porch. Not in anyone’s direct line of sight, but if someone wanted to peek between the hedges, it would be easy to see. Could they get registered as a sex offender?
My boyfriend likes to walk around inside the house naked, not caring whether the shades are drawn. We’re on the 2nd floor of a huge apartment complex that faces the public sidewalk. If kids getting off the school bus happened to look up at our exact window at the exact moment he happened to be walking naked to the kitchen for a snack, could he be registered?
The fact that this guy was on his own porch makes me wonder what his rights are to be naked on his property. My friend’s in-laws are nudists and are both naked in and around their home. Her MIL gardens outside naked.
Is just the fact that someone happens to see you naked, even when you’re on your own property, enough to be a sex offender?
@JKP The man should move to Germany. Many nude sunbathing old people in parks. No one seems to be traumatized. (I do not know whether they would accept nude person in his own backyard.)
There are places where the old man in question would be free to walk around buck naked without anyone freaking out at the sight of his bait and tackle. I’m thinking of Burning Man, which is going on right now, but there are nude beaches and naturist resorts, too.
It’s a shame the police can’t direct him to one of those places, instead of making him move.
Isn’t Michigan where a proposed nursing home near a school was causing all kinds of panic and outrage among the parents of the schoolchildren, because one of the old people might wander outside naked, and their precious snowflakes might see them and be traumatized for life?
Is there a name for fear of naked old people? Wrinklygenataliaphobia, or something?
There was a really bad case of NIMBY around here a few years ago when an elder care facility of some kind wanted to build in a certain neighborhood, and (some of) the neighbors decided their snowflakes would be scarred by seeing ambulances and hearses go in and out with some frequency.
I think the place didn’t get built there for some other reason but thankfully, those particular arguments didn’t get anywhere.
As someone who began his own school years in Michigan, it occurs to me to ask:
Isn’t the old guy cold? Michigan’s not warm through much of the school year.
@Wendy and Gina, I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thinks we need to take a less junior high view of nudity in general. What if, like my husband, these kids put themselves through school by working at a senior care home? Grow up. As far as prosecution in general, we really need to refocus on malice and/or actual damages, and not just “gotcha” crimes.
The sympathy toward registered sex offenders and ppl like these on this site, is appalling–they are breaking laws. How on earth do these types of situations incite parents to become less protective? No one, not me, nor my 3 year old should have to be subjected to some dirty old man standing naked every time we walk by. In new york city, this crap happens regularly and it’s disgusting, plain old disgusting. While he may not be harming anyone, he is harassing ppl, and that’s the issue. Good for the town to make him move. And again, how is this making us better parents? How does this make kids “freer” and less attached? It’s not funny though if this dirty old man begins to masturbate? Or if he begins to become dirtier?
The sympathy toward registered sex offenders and ppl like these on this site, is appalling–they are breaking laws.
[Humming] How do you solve a problem like Maria? 🙂
Maria, which is more disgusting: Seeing a naked old man or forcing an old man to move because someone finds him disgusting?
Registered sex offenders are not, in general, breaking laws. They are law abiding citizens who have done their time for the law-breaking they did in the past. You will find exceptions, of course, just as you will find law breakers among those who are NOT registered sex offenders. You might be interested to know that most arrests for sex offenses are of people who are not on the registry.
And again, how is this making us better parents? How does this make kids “freer†and less attached?
It makes us better parents because the old guy on his porch is the perfect opportunity for us to teach our kids to be tolerant of imperfect people. We have the chance to teach them that Mr. Jones is to be pitied because he’s obviously got a problem or two. We have the chance to teach them to mind their own business and not to gossip about things that don’t concern them. We have the chance to show them that it can be a kindness to take dinner over as a means to make sure Mr. Jones is safe in his home, and to find out if his [what seems to be] dementia is interfering with his ability to care for himself. Seeing him on the porch is a good opportunity to talk to our kids about the difference between a harmless eccentric and someone who is a real danger.
If our kids can learn kindness and tolerance and discretion –and how to deal with the unexpected!– from seeing the way we deal with naked old men, that all helps to make them freer and less attached.
No one, not me, nor my 3 year old should have to be subjected to some dirty old man standing naked every time we walk by.
You’re right, of course. No one yearns for unpleasant events. We shouldn’t have to deal with broken arms or car accidents or illness or bad haircuts. And yet we DO. We do have to deal with unpleasantness every day. Why not teach your kids how to do that gracefully?
Whatever happened to getting one of his friends to talk with him? No let’s force someone, probably not 100% in their right mind, to sell their home, instead.
Maria,
I cannot wait until you are in your senior years, and begin doing something that allows the law or your kids to institutionalize you.
@marie: teaching your kids about imperfect ppl: yes, the dirty old man with his penis hanging out is the quintessential person to underscore the importance of tolerance for “imperfect” ppl. Do you have rocks in your head?
There are plenty of other ppl and ways that I will teach my daughter kindness and tolerance, and dirty old man or young men or any man foisting his nudity on her is not one of them. No person should have to tolerate anyone’s nudity and being disgusted by it is not being rude. Sorry, if my daughter is going to see nude men, it’s going to be becasue she chooses to do so.
My former neighbor was very old, possibly over one hundred. She had some kind of dementia, and she used to leave the house sometimes and wander around in her nightie. The nightie had been washed many times, so that it had assumed a state of transparency.
Picture, if you will, a hundred-year-old woman walking around outside in a transparent nightgown. A short, low-cut transparent nighty.
One of the things this lady liked to do was talk to children, and we’d see her occasionally happily chatting to kids, while she was, for all intents and purposes, completely naked. The children didn’t look particularly happy, but they weren’t screaming in terror, and no one ever called the police. Eventually, the woman’s daughter, who was herself in her eighties, would come out of the house and collect her mother and that would be that.
I don’t see how this old lady and Naked Porch Man are any different, other than the old guy did something to land him on the sex offender registry. The registry covers an astonishingly wide variety of offenses, with more people getting put on it every day, so unless Maria plans to move her daughter into some kind of colony that is entirely free of registered sex offenders, or of anyone else who ever broke any kind of law, she’s pretty much out of luck in terms of expecting her kid to grow up in what she considers to be an acceptable environment.
A few weeks ago I was driving home from a park with my three-year-old when I saw an over-the-hill naked dude (except for something that looked like a sock on his penis). My reaction? “Look, *kid’s name*, that man is naked. Kinda weird, huh?” He wouldn’t have even noticed if I hadn’t pointed it out. But I just didn’t see any reason to shelter him from things that occasionally happen in this world, plus I thought it was a curiosity worthy of attention. Kid’s reaction? “I hope he is not too cold”. I mean, come on, it’s just a human body. We all have one. Was this guy a pervert or crazy? Nah, we live in San Francisco; he was just a random naked guy on the street.
“No one, not me, nor my 3 year old should have to be subjected to some dirty old man standing naked every time we walk by.”
Says who? At what point did we decide that there is something so wrong with the human body that, not only should we not have to see it, but that it is actually a traumatic experience to do so?
Now personally I prefer to wear clothes, but that is because I am selective as to who I want to see my body, not because I think everyone has some god given right to never see a natural body. Other people may be less selective as to who gets to see their bodies.
It sounds like this guy was just standing there naked. He wasn’t masturbating or doing anything that is better left to private. He should probably be evaluated for senility as this is really against societal norms, but I see no reason for him to have to move or be on the sex offender registry because other people don’t like seeing his body in its natural state.
When I was in middle school, a friend and I had a brief run-in with a flasher in the cemetary that we regularly crossed through on our walk home. The cemetary was conveniently placed between our school and our neighborhood and a much easier way to get home than the road. Anyway, one day – a “gentleman” leapt from behind one of the larger monument-style headstones and proceeded to open what appeared to be a bathrobe and wiggle his naked self at us. My friend screamed, I laughed, and we ran home to tell our parents. My mother’s response? “That poor man. I guess I should call the police and let them know so they can round him up and give him the help he needs. Probably a good idea to avoid the cemetary short cut for a few days until they have a chance to round him up.” And that was it. A week or so later, we were back using our shortcut and never saw him, or anyone else, again.
As a parent to two daughters, I often think about my mom’s response and I feel she did the right thing. If she’d freaked out completely and overreacted about the situation, likely it would have instilled in me anxiety and fright about this sort of thing happening again. But by staying calm and matter-of-fact, she taught me 1 – to be sympathetic towards folks who clearly need extra support from the community and 2 – that the way to handle situations like this was to keep calm, assess the situation, and use common sense. Had the man presented a real danger to me and my friend, freaking out would have served no purpose whatsoever and might have further endangered us.
Sheesh it’s just naked.
There’s a guy a couple of towns from here that keeps getting in trouble for going to the drivethrough naked. He claims he’s a nudist and should have the legal right to do so, the staff tend to get pissed off, so he occasionally gets charged with something which bounces around through appeals and nothing ever comes of it. Certainly he’s not been made a sex offender, he’s been fined a couple of times.
On the other end of the spectrum here is protesting, nudity is considered legally protected free speech in this context. The end result of which means that any issues parade can, and probably will, have naked people in it. Even though a lot of times it’s not really a protest they just want to do it. Whatever, it’s just naked. My kids have seen it dozens of times, the only negative reaction my kids get is the odd year when they’re annoyed that I make them wear clothes to the park
I’m not quite as blase about this as some here, but the fact that I wouldn’t like my kid to be exposed to this regularly and wouldn’t quite think it no big deal, does not mean that I want the guy locked up or hounded from his home. It sounds like he needs some kind of intervention because he should not be doing that, and either is competent to understand that and needs to be made to stop, or is not competent and needs to be prevented from doing it. But societies that disapproved of public nakedness found reasonable, non-hysterical ways of dealing with stuff like this for ages without creating laws and systems that essentially made it impossible for people who transgress them to live or function.
If the guy needs to be in a home with security, so be it, but handle it in a way that does not treat him like an actual predator. If he just needs to be warned, do that. Going straight to “we need to make this guy homeless or throw him in prison” is bomb-on-a-mouse stuff.
@Maria – You are missing the point. I am dealing with my aging grandfather. Part of the aging process can include losing your mental faculties – including your sense of what is socially acceptable behavior and your sense of personal shame. Is it right to label an old man acting out of dementia or old age as a sex offender? NO!
,
And your solution, that he should have to move, is ridiculous. As long as he’s not in YOUR neighborhood it’s fine? Nevermind that he’s now doing it in some other mother’s neighborhood? How arrogant!
Does anybody else remember the Randy Newman song “Naked Man?”
The chorus went: beware, beware beware of the naked man.
Funny stuff.
The idea that standing naked on his porch makes Old Naked Guy a threat to children because of what he MIGHT do is ludicrous. Anyone might do anything, at any time. Fear should be based on what is likely to happen, not on what could possibly happen.
How is seeing an old man naked on his front porch worse than seeing an old man at the beach, wearing a Speedo? Is it because you’re SUPPOSED to be almost naked at the beach, but you’re not supposed to be naked on your front porch? Who made up these rules, anyway?
Different generations, different cultures and different people have such wide range of attitudes when it comes to the human body and what is acceptable.
I know people that are absolutely offended seeing a man working in his front yard with no shirt on.
I would imagine that the creators and purveyors of these laws would declare themselves progressive and well moved on from the attitudes of Victorian England – and they would be wrong.
Instead, we have the hypocrisy of the contemporary business of the sexualization of everything. For example, the fashion business that churns out clothing styles for little girls that imitate their elders. We let that one go….along with the endless advertising and marketing campaigns that drag children into ages beyond their years.
A society riddled with “dirty old” attitudes that can hardly recognize itself for what it actually is….trades compassion and common sense for draconian laws that insert cheap pop moralities straight into the “body” politic.
It doesn’t know what to do with a playground “pantsed” child, let alone a sad old senile senior.
The smarter we get, the dumber we become.
If what Lenore wrote was accurate, these kids were on a moving bus, which gives them 2-3 seconds, maybe five if it’s a long road with no trees, to see this. I’ve seen billboards that were probably more disturbing.
>The sympathy toward registered sex offenders and ppl like >these on this site, is appalling–they are breaking laws.
Oh, I see. A bunch of politicians said so – quick, suspend your own mind and jump on the bandwagon!
I wonder if Maria will have trouble, as mentioned in a later post, teaching her children tolerance if the example she sets is asking those who disagree with her if they have rocks in their heads. Just idle curiosity though.
And I agree totally with Donna – what is so wrong with our bodies that we think the sight of them is traumatizing?
This is what happens when society is inverted. On any reasonable scale, the naked old man is actually more sane than the fear-riddled psychotics who are outraged at him. How can you fix that? Sadly, you probably cannot.
Well you know something? This is what really sticks in my craw about so-called “Child Psychologists”. These people assume that all children who see a dirty old naked man on his front porch will be traumatized for life. Now under what basis do they assume that? These so-called experts DON’T KNOW SHIT ABOUT CHILDREN!!! The far majority of kids would be laughing their butts off and would have quite a tale to share at school!
Years ago when I student taught 7th grade, a female member of the police department came into our class to discuss the dangers of pedophiles and predators. So she gave some role playing situations to the kids and asked the class, “Now what would you do if a person pulled over and asked you for directions and you notice that he’s not wearing any pants?” Well let me tell you something, there was a roar of laughter from the class, especially from the boys! The police officer was just dumbfounded by their reaction.
Senior dementia. Does nobody in this town have any compassion? I was visiting my grandmother who has Alzheimer’s a few months ago and she came out of her room topless and insisted on giving my pre-teen son a hug. To his credit, he was very polite and gave a quick side hug then bolted for the back door. I will never forget the look on his face. I was afraid that he may be blind for life but I never thought he would need counselling.
Even if this is too traumatizing for the little china cups on the bus to see………..reroute the bus!
I know this it OT from this post, but it hits on the “Mom of kid at park got arrested”.
Contrasts the differences between the right to play in a playground vs being able to fire an Uzi at 9.
http://time.com/3222257/a-tale-of-two-9-year-olds-the-one-on-the-playground-and-the-one-with-an-uzi/
This quote got to me…
“told her that if it happened again, to point at him and laugh before running away.”
Sounds a lot like my great uncle’s response when he heard my confused and irritated tale of a college classmate exposing himself to me. Though he was more specific about the pointing. Doubt it would be a particularly helpful response with a senile old man. Never had that sort of encounter as a child, but then I’m a fair amount under 40.
There are several factors that have changed our society and the main one is that we have gotten way too serious as a society in general.
A second factor is that police occupy a position in society where they are given the job to STOP things. That is their hat stopping things, people and the things that people do.
There are also people who have a “stop things and people” mentality and when you combine them with cops and a powerful insurance lobby you get a society that is looking for reasons to stop people.
Ordering children to wear bicycle helmets is an example of this kind of madness. Yes it protects their bodies but so does shoulder pads and armor plate.
Seat belts for cars are practical but we would all be much safer in our cars if we wore football pads and helmets.
We have to take back control from the stoppers and the cops who serve them.
I asked around and was able to get some additional information on this case. He has received a psychological evaluation. Obviously, I don’t know the result of that, nor do I know if he is receiving services. He had an extensive history and reputation of exposing himself to people. The police had been called and he was given warnings, so this wasn’t just some kind of gotcha. Some of these incidents apparently involved him masturbating and fondling himself.
In Michigan, indecent exposure requires some intentional exposure. In other words, you have to knowingly expose yourself to other people. There really isn’t any such thing as accidental indecent exposure. It is also dependent on the community.
Dirty Old Man: Hey, little girl! Do you know what this is?
Smart Young Girl: Yeah. It looks like a penis . . . only smaller.
This story would be funny, if not for the fact that the poor chap is having to move.
The only time I remember personally being annoyed by public nudity was the day we got to see Trafalgar Square (I think that’s the one, the place in London with the big lions) which is geographically about as far from home as one can get, and for which privilege we’d contributed a crap load of money to the coffers of certain airlines….and when we got there the first half hour was spent with the kids ogling and laughing at some protester striding naked around on top of a low building next door :-).
Stupid parent, trying to get ‘cultural’ with pre-teens…. 🙂
I am sorry, but unless dementia is involved there is no excuse for this. I agree that kids aren’t as fragile as we think, but it is still not acceptable in our culture. I usually agree with the posts here, but not today.
hineata,
Oh well you traded a lesson in culture for a lesson in anatomy.
In general, I hope this man finds a new home across the street for Maria or Carolyn.
Wow Warren. Is no one suppose to have a differing opinion than you? I though this was suppose to be an adult conversation. I feel like I am back in Jr. High. Oh well, goodnight.
@RJ says:
I’m currently typing this one handed from my hospital room. Last Sunday, I wiped out on my bicycle trying to pass a group of pedestrians and discovered that road bike tires and sand are not a good mix. Broken humerus–I don’t recommend it.
Here’s the thing, though. Bones heal. Brains don’t. Brains stay broken. I like my brain. We get along pretty well. I’d rather have two or three humerus injuries than one brain injury and end up like the old man in this article at the tender age of fifty.
I was wearing a helmet. Did it save my brain in this instance? Probably not. But considering the win/lose scenario of not wearing a helmet, I’ll wear it whenever I ride.
I recommend it for adults and kids because, as I said above: Brains Don’t Heal.
Chances are he is not really a dirty old man but a sick old man. My grandfather recently had a stroke and is now very confused. He has been found in his hospital room completely naked and has no understanding that he should keep clothes on. People with Alzheimers or dementia will not understand they are doing something “wrong”. Instead of treating him like a criminal maybe someone should investigate if he has some medical needs that need to be addressed.
Pink Floyd said it best: Leave those kids alone.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2014/08/25/greg_miller_the_bus_stop_between_two_worlds_is_a_look_at_the_vulnerability.html
Is he only getting naked when the bus goes by, or is he a guy who likes to hang out naked all the time, and sometimes the bus goes by?
The latter seems like less of an issue to me. A guy purposely just getting naked for kids… needs an intervention.
Thanks SteveS.
So this guy isn’t jsut some guy who thinks clothes are uncomfortable or some naturist or something, he’s actively seeking sexual attention.
While I don’t think making him move is a solution, neither do I think it is harmless, funny behavior.
Anthony Weiner needs to form a PAC to help out these poor flashers, who only want to show people their junk. Anthony, where are you when we need you?
From the article, it sounds like he was first convicted of exposing himself to elementary school kids in 1999, so this is likely not a case of dementia as some have suggested. I don’t want it to be perfectly legal for people to flash young kids, but I would advocate some other kinds of steps before considering making him move. How about community service (though not working with minors obviously), medical and mental health evaluation, etc.
it shouldn’t be traumatic to see an old, confused person naked. However, I have been flashed by mastribating men many times in public and that really is an imposition and harassment. So there has to be some kind of common sense in how we deal with this kind of problem.
I agree that if the man is of sound mind and body then yes, I don’t mind him being charged with indecent exposure. Not sure if the sexual registry is appropriate but at least he did knowingly break the indecent exposure law. So whatever they do to people who commit that crime should be done to him. I would say a fine and community service and tell him next time he is going to jail.
Because yes, if you are not addled in the brain, you should not be walking around naked on your porch all the time.
However, it is not some huge deal people need to freak out over either.
If he wants to be in the buff he needs to move out in the country with no neighbors or go live in a nudist colony.
Why do we think 1. that wearing clothes is the default and if you don’t like it, go to some reservation for crazies like you and 2. that the default needs to be respected? We weren’t born with clothes on.
It seems that most of you don’t actually read on really investigate, but rather insult on surface information. This man had a history of exposing himself to children, first. Then, he plead guilty to two counts of indecent exposure. His sex offender label was lifted in 2011, and then he exposed himself again. He also had a history of masturbating and fondling himself in front of children. If you all, who are coming to his defense, think that it’s okay to behave this way in public and in front of kids. Then I don’t know what to say. Some children may in fact be traumatized by this–what about the one child who may have been or is being molested. Further, i don’t really think “dirty old men” who expose themselves to children should be treated lightly in any way. And lastly, why are you victim blaming–if someone finds it offensive because he’s breaking the law–and it’s a lay whether you like it or not, like stealing–then the victim (whose been subjected to seeing his saggy balls) is not the criminal here.
Apparently, he only did this at certain times, mostly when kids were going by. As for him being mentally ill or just being confused, I really don’t know. I do know the reputation of his attorney and can say that he was well represented.
Sounds like he needs a higher fence. If he comes around the fence…well then, he needs some incentive to change his ways.
My daughter saw my husband naked until about age 4. Our gym has the policy no one over age 5 allowed in the opposite sex changing room. (There is a family changing area for those who do need extra help.) One pool that we used to go to said that kids up to age 7 could be in the opposite gender changing room. And, at least half of the kids on that bus have seen old man saggy balls as recently as this summer because they probably went to a public pool and saw other men in the changing room.
So…that means we are protecting the little girls. Are little girls really that fragile? Do little girls never get exposed to fine art, see Greek statues, or David? My kids have been looking at classic art from a very young age. I doubt that a guy standing nude on his porch would be “shocking” or “traumatizing.” Shoot, we even watched a documentary when my daughter was about 8 about the Saltan Sea (I think) in CA that has some really interesting people. One is building a huge castle type construction. Another is Gold Man (or something like that) a guy who sits by his mailbox most of the day in a lounge chair. Nude. But, as there are about 50 people that live in the area, no one complains. And I don’t think I scared my daughter for life by letting her learn about the state we were living in and the people in it. The kids mostly focused on the person building the castle.
Ah, I’m glad there are people here who aren’t as uptight about nudity as America often seems to be (TV shows pixeling every half inch buttcrack appearing above someone’s pants).
So they saw a naked guy when riding the bus – that’s like zapping past the wrong TV channel.
I’m not surprised at all that kids just laughed, and for very young kids a naked body is just a naked body is just a naked body. Yeah, that’s what it looks like. It only becomes a traumatizing experience when Mom freaks out going ‘EEEW, OMG honey, cover your eyes, are you okay sweetheart, here let me call the psychologist for emergency therapy – you must be SO shocked…’
Not saying I condone people showing themselves to kids on purpose (which wasn’t even what this old man did), but it really isn’t the big deal people make it – even when a kid sees a guy who IS actually masturbating, it’s not the end of the world.
Yes, Maria, we have the tendency to insult without researching – for instance, a lot of us here tend to ask people if they have rocks in their heads…oh, wait…
Yes, my disliking a law doesn’t change it. No, it doesn’t have any impact on how I view an action. I judge actions on their own merits, not based on the preferences of a bunch of prostitutes – much less a bunch of politicians.
I think the kids being molested are more likely to be traumatized by being molested than by seeing a naked person walking around.
It’s like “slut shaming.” That is another class of people that certain moralistic views hold as inappropriate for sexual expression. I get that there are older people who have lost their wits and that that is what is being discussed here. But obviously the usage of term “dirty old man” is broader.
As a 68 year old man still in possession of an active sexuality I am acutely aware of the “dirty old man” label. I have also come to realize that the term “slut” is used in the same way to discourage sexual expression by young single women.
Are those lists even constitutional in the US? I mean, isn’t it a cruel and unusual punishment to permanently brand a person, even a convicted criminal, as a “monster”, without giving him second chances? In a free country, a man does a crime, he gets sentenced and does his time, and then is free to start again his life as a free man in a fresh beginning. Also, the government forcing people to move as punishment for crimes is icky; he did his jail time, he paid his fine, now he can go back to his private property and enjoy it.
Maria,
You need to relax, step back and take a deep breath. People in here are not so much defending the man, but speaking out against assinine laws. In this case the sex offender registry and it’s complete unjust residency restrictions.
During this people in here have offered alternatives as to why this elderly man is the way he is. Apparently, even according to you, his behaviour manifested itself in his mid to late 60’s. Which is still well within normal ranges for many mental illness problems associated with aging.
Be careful, because one day you to may find yourself in a similar position.
“An older gentleman. (YOU try finding a copyright- and controversy-free illustration for “Dirty Old Man.â€)”
You need a cartoonist… Someone who can just make a quick (funny) drawing about the subject of the day.
@crazycatlady: wow…what a comparison: fine greek art to a filthy old man who stands on his porch exposing himself or masturbating to children on a school bus. Really?
“Little girls aren’t that fragile”: no little girl or big girl for that matter should be subjected to seeing anyone’s penis if they don’t want to. And that is the most important thing here. It’s not a matter of turning your head or anything like that, it’s allowing someone else to make you see something you might not want to see, and that’s it. So, if you like your kids seeing the sagging balls of dirty old men, great. But the rest of the world, might not.
Maria, the first part of my post was that the town should make him put up a fence. If he ignores the fence, then there need to be other consequences. Towns often have laws that fences can’t be over a certain amount high. I would say that a man who wants to walk around nude on his porch warrants a higher than the limit, so that the kids on the bus can’t see in.
And yes, my daughter DID see someone’s penis when she didn’t ask to. She was 3, and the boy was 4 and was showing him her parts. Which, honestly, she had seen before because she has a little brother and watched and even helped with diaper changing. It didn’t scar her any more than changing the diaper did. The boy is not, nor was he, a pervert.
Please, explain to me how seeing the penis of the kid she knows, so different than seeing a random guy on the porch in the nude? The boy’s mom did explain to him that he should keep that part private. This old dude doesn’t seem to be getting the message…but I don’t think it harmed the kids on the bus to see it one time. Put up a fence. He can do what he wants as long as he stays behind it.
The boy was showing his parts to my daughter. It has been a long day. 🙂
@crazycatlady–oh, i don’t know a 4 year old exposing himself to another four year old, normal. A 74 year old man exposing and masturbating in front of young kids…not normal, at least for most ppl. It’s about a violation of rights–the adult has no right to expose himself to a child. Period.
“no little girl or big girl for that matter should be subjected to seeing anyone’s penis if they don’t want to. And that is the most important thing here. It’s not a matter of turning your head or anything like that, it’s allowing someone else to make you see something you might not want to see”
Again, says who? There are many things in this world that I don’t necessarily want to see. I don’t have some god given right not to see anything that makes me uncomfortable. And my lack of desire to see things is definitely not the most important thing in ANY SITUATION.
A penis is a human body part. Nothing more. Now this guy should not be allowed to masturbate to children walking by (if that is what is happening) as that shows a certain level of pedophilia tendencies. That said, what does moving him accomplish as it doesn’t sound like they are moving him to jail, just another neighborhood? This is no different than the way that we move all those other things that make us uncomfortable – old people, the poor, the homeless, the disabled – so that we don’t have to see them, but never actually do anything about the problems.
“oh, i don’t know a 4 year old exposing himself to another four year old, normal. A 74 year old man exposing and masturbating in front of young kids…not normal, at least for most ppl. It’s about a violation of rights–the adult has no right to expose himself to a child.”
Hmmm, either you have a right to not see a penis or you don’t.
It is true that a 74 year old year old should know better than a 4 year old that currently defined social graces mean that you keep your penis covered (unless the 74 year old is incompetent, as I suspect from SteveS’ further facts), but if we are basing our sex offender laws solely on what Maria has a right to see or not see, then the 4 year old is no different than a 74 year old. And unwanted viewing of a penis is an unwanted viewing of a penis. Or do you want to see a 4 year old penis?
Maria, what about the fence? Would you be okay with him being nude behind the fence?
And yes, I have to agree with Donna, either having our precious fragile little girls see a penis is a violation of rights…or it isn’t. And what about all the dads who have to take their little girls to the men’s room to use the bathroom? No, I don’t think it has harmed them either.
To me, it is a body part. I think that where you get caught up is that it is a part that can be used for sex. But, so can a lot of other body parts. Do we need to hide all fingers, mouths, hands, etc? Lets get out the burkahs right now, shall we? And make them for both genders?
@Maria: “no little girl or big girl for that matter should be subjected to seeing anyone’s penis if they don’t want to.”
Are you suggesting you’d keep your little children from seeing each other’s genitals if you had both a girl and a boy??? Because after all your little girl might just see your son’s penis and then she’s scarred for life!
“A 74 year old man exposing and masturbating in front of young kids”
That was NOT what he was doing. The article says he was seen standing on his porch naked, and a school bus happened to pass by.
@ maria:
That is ridiculous. It is exactly the same reason that some give for making women wear modest clothing or otherwise cover up–because subjecting a man to my dirty cleavage, or legs, or hair is making him see something that he might not want to see. And it is a stupid and offensive argument.
Part of being out and about is seeing the body parts of other people. Sure, seeing a naked old man (even one that is masturbating) is probably not pleasant, and it is definitely against societal norms, but it is ultimately pretty much harmless. He’s on his own private property, not out in a public place or anything, and he isn’t actually doing anything to actually harmful to those kids. As a parent, I’d hope that I would treat this as a learning opportunity for my kids and explain to them that sometimes we are subjected to unpleasantness, as that is part of living in a society with other people, but that we aren’t so fragile that seeing it has to warp our psyches or anything.
Also, does this apply only to men? Because when I was a kid, we had a lady who wasn’t quite all there mentally and who lived a couple of houses down and behind us. Her front porch was maybe 100 feet from our back porch and there was a straight view from one to the other. Anyway, she liked to sit naked on her porch pretty much every day it wasn’t too cold and sometimes she would masturbate while out there. She knew what she was doing, but I don’t know that she understood it was unacceptable or anything like that. Nobody treated it as anything other than, B is out touching herself again, better call her sister to come get her. And that was that. No big thing and none of us kids were at all traumatized by that behavior.
I’m not sure what crazy hole all of you crawled out of, but there is a big difference between seeing the penis of a dirty old man and that of a little boy, and here it is: this is a sane old man who enjoys exposing himself to children, and if you don’t think that’s a problem, then you I feel sorry for your kids–Further, if you research this, you will find out that he was arrested for indecent exposure and plead guilty. The “sex offender” label was removed in 2011, but he did it again. He was also arrested for masturbating and fondling himself in front of children, so yeah, as I said, if you think this is okay, then great. But, most ppl don’t think dirty old men have any place near kids. And if a women did it, i would say the same thing.
Maria,
So you have been over to his place for dinner, coffee what? Just how do you know he is “sane”?
Next where should he live? Other than prison for the rest of his life, where should he be? Where is there going to be zero kids?
“there is a big difference between seeing the penis of a dirty old man and that of a little boy, and here it is: this is a sane old man who enjoys exposing himself to children,”
But your argument has never been that the man is a pervert. The most important thing to you is that every female has some inalienable right to never see a penis that she doesn’t want to see. You’ve said that repeatedly. There is no difference between the right to not see a 4 year old penis and the right to not see a 74 year old penis, unless, of course, you want to see 4 year old penises. Forgive us for pointing out flaws in your arguments.
I think most agree that a sane person should not be masturbating to children. I believe most of us have even said so. I don’t know how you know that this man is sane unless you know him. He could be mentally challenged. He could be mentally ill. He could have been sane at one time, but now has dementia. Who knows. He’s had a mental evaluation so his attorney thinks that there is a competency issue. Were you the psychologist who did the report and know the results? Maybe you’re his attorney or a member of the court staff and have read them? I just can’t figure out how you are so damn sure that he is sane by reading a blurb on the internet.
And no need to feel remotely sorry for my kid. My daughter is being raised to not be traumatized by a penis. Seems like a good tactic since I do hope that one day she will enjoy sex and, while it is certainly fine if she is homosexual, I can’t help but hope she is heterosexual as her life will be so much easier. My daughter is also being raised to understand the difference between actually being molested and seeing some guy masturbate from a distance.
Maria,
You say this man is sane. By whose standard?
Personally an elderly man exposing himself in public, despite who sees it, I would think is anything but completely sane.
He may be sane enough to stand trial, aid in his defense, and somewhat understand why he is on trial, but there definitely has to be some mental problems. And probably not serious enough for the court to have considered him dangerous.
So for the sake of Maria’s sensitivities we should start locking up the mentally ill. Nice.
Who wants to take some bets?
Odds are:
100:1 they are making him move because he poses a risk to the kids.
3:2 that it is easier to make him move, than to put up with call after call after call of people like Maria demanding something be done.
People like Maria, that will insist he is sane, so they will move him. But when they call about him, the call usually starts with “That crazy old……”
Crazycatlady is into having her daughter see 4 year old penis and those of old men, not me. Morevover, the article stipulates that he is sane, not me, and you are suggesting that it’s better if he’s insane and flashing ppl. You are all insane. Here’s an idea: take your kids and let them stare at his saggy balls, so they can learn, as some of you suggested: human anatomy, empathy, and kindness. Wow, what a bunch of lunatics.
Maria,
Where does it say he is sane? Nothing in the linked article mentioning his mental state.
Nice try, but severe failure on your part. You do realize one day you will be old, and if you raise your kids in your image, well………..I’d start looking at institutions now, because they will be quick to put you in one.
…and if you don’t think that’s a problem, then you I feel sorry for your kids…
I Feel Sorry for Your Children, a photography show.
Maria –
Where exactly does the article say he is sane? Please quote the passage because the article that I read says absolutely nothing about his sanity at all. SteveS, a lawyer who lives in the area, provided additional facts, one of which is that he has had a psychological exam. SteveS didn’t know the results of that exam. Were you somehow privy to the results of that exam?
As a lawyer, if someone is capable of pleading to their own counts, then they are sane. He pleaded guilty to 2 counts of indecent exposure, so he is sane; otherwise, his lawyer would have pleaded (or should have pleaded) that he was having mental issues. The crazy thing with you crazy ppl is that you’d rather have an insane man exposing himself–someone who has no idea what he’s doing. And yes, if I started doing this, I would hope that my kids or someone would stop me. This is not a nudist colony or a nudist beach–if that’s what he wants then let him go there. Further, I would be worried about your children.
“if someone is capable of pleading to their own counts, then they are sane. He pleaded guilty to 2 counts of indecent exposure, so he is sane; otherwise, his lawyer would have pleaded (or should have pleaded) that he was having mental issues.”
Apparently, you aren’t a criminal lawyer. I plead incompetent people out to minor crimes regularly. I’d be a pretty shitty attorney if I let my client spend the rest of his life in a state mental hospital when I could have coached him through a plea for a couple months of probation. Further, I believe that that plea was several years ago. You do realize that competency changes?
I’m not bothered by a crazy or non-crazy man standing on his front porch naked. It.is.just.a.penis. I think your being offended by a piece of human anatomy possessed by 50% of the population is what is crazy. And, again, my kid is just fine. I guarantee that she will grow up with a much healthier view of the human body than yours.
Further, I would be worried about your children.
Ah. But why? That is a serious question. What is there to worry about?
If a child sees something unexpected or unpleasant or truly horrifying, are parents somehow unable to help them process those events? We can’t protect our kids from seeing the horrifying (a bloody highway accident or video from 9/11, for example) and we seem to think parents can help their kids deal with that. Do you think parents are unable to help their kids deal with seeing the old man?
I really don’t understand what there is to fear or to worry about.
“You are all insane.”
Yes, Maria, we are all ghost drivers.
*facepalm*
Ah, Maria, will you never answer me about the fence? If he is sane or not, why not help him build a fence so he can do what he wants behind it?
No, I am not “into” have my now 14 year old look at penises. But the fact is…she was two when her first brother was born. She was 5 when her second brother was born. She helped to change diapers. She took baths with her brothers. She learned that their penises belonged to them and she was not allowed to touch them. Nor they her areas. (Not having things sticking out does make it less likely for kids to want to touch.) Yes, her little friend “showed” her his stuff. Big deal. I am sure she doesn’t even remember her father walking around in the nude when she was 2 or 3 to get to the bathroom in the morning. Again, what is the big deal? It is there. It has several purposes, the main one elimination of waste and liquid from the body. 99% of its use it just that…elimination.
Do her brothers still bath with her? Not on your life! They would probably be embarrassed if she brought up that she helped to change diapers. (As would my brother, who was the baby demonstration model for how to change diapers for my Campfire Girls group when I was about 11. None of those girls were traumatized either, though they did learn a skill that came in handy for baby sitting.)
And yes, I live out in the country, along a dirt road. And some neighbors want to save their septic system and water…and the guys pee in bushes. They don’t think that they are able to be seen, but a couple have been “caught” by other neighbors (female) who thought it was really very funny! Our family goes hiking and camping in the woods…not at developed campsites. Sometimes we all have to pee…my daughter understands that, and turns the other way…but really…she understands it is human. And she also thinks that the guys have it much better when camping. They only have to do half as much squatting!
But…that my daughter has seen a penis on more than just her siblings…I had forgotten until this post. It is not something that my daughter or I dwell on. (At least I don’t think she does…she hasn’t shown interest in having a boy friend yet, but I am willing to wait for that one, 14 is too young.)
So Marie, will you answer my question? If the townspeople help this man put up a fence, would you be okay with him staying where he is? If the bus kids couldn’t see him? Or, is his past “sin” so great that he needs to be driven out of town? Potentially some other place where he might wander onto the porch at the same time the bus goes by.
The biggest issue is that “sex offenders” in the sex offenders registry’s view, is very vague. That’s like saying give me something blue. What “thing”, what kind of “blue”?
Can we call a mentally deficient elderly person, who is not in full control of all his faculties, that stands on his porch naked, and not actually assaulting or targeting anyone specifically, a sexual predator? Or, as we’ve read in the past, two teens having consensual sex, yet the boy is tagged a sexual predator. And at 15 years old must now register as a sex offender?
Society, especially authorities, are quick to point fingers, yet don’t do a very good job of regulating and controlling policies and opinions. They drum up some vague cockamaymie law, and go to town. They would rather sweep issue under the rug, than actually FIX them. This is what things like the sex offender registry is. It ruins innocent lives, just so they can feed something to the public “mob”.
Maria,
You do realize that there are many people whom you probably know and think are sane, but are suffering from mental illness. That there is many shades of grey between sane and drooling in the corner, right?
Some could even make a case for you to have a mental illness with how upset you are about this case.
And if your kids cannot handle this kind of thing without it being traumatic, then you as a parent have FAILED.
Maria,
You can stop worrying, the authorities figured out what was the problem.
This old guy was just confused. He heard the kids liked the movie Free Willy, and confused it with a free moving willy.
So it is all settled.
It is estimated that one in every five girls and one in every seven boys are sexually abused by the time they reach adulthood. (Finkelhor, D. (1994). Current information on the scope and nature of child sexual abuse. ii. Child Abuse and Neglect, 4, 31–53.)
You wanted stats. It’s not the old naked man you should fear. It’s the online predators that dupe your kids into thinking that they are peers when they could easily be years older. After grooming for a while, the next step in a secret meeting at the mall. Listen folks, it happens all the time in every major city in America. Maybe it’s unlikely that this would happen to your kid, but do you allow your kid to go without a bicycle helmet because it’s statistically unlikely that he will suffer a serious brain injury if he falls? Do you let your kid go without a seat belt because it’s statistically unlikely that you will have a car accident? You have an obligation to be a protective parent. Your child’s frontal lobe (where judgement and decisions are made) is not developed at the age of 13 or 14. You took on the responsibility to care of that kid. Please do it.
Joe,
Well let’s take a look at those stats, of child abuse.
You say 20% of females, and 14% of males are abused. Considering the vast majority of child abuse is by a family member, or friend of the family, why don’t you come back with the stats that a relevant. Like how many kids are abused by strangers, which without doing the math, are far and few between.
Helmets, I only ever enforced it, if they were in an area that they could be busted by the cops for it. Other than that it was their choice.
Seatbelts, well they do ride without them, as my 67 Pontiac never came with them, and will never have them.
So, why don’t you go back, do some more research, and come here when you have the correct numbers.