From ekkszbrbbb
my mailbox, ever-filled with flacks seeking publicity:
Hi there – Hope you’re well.
Wanted to reach out quickly with an interesting snow storm related story idea: with kids stuck at home with a snow day, they are more likely to be on their smartphones/computers, increasing the chances of them cyberbullying someone or getting cyberbullied themselves….
If you’re interested, I have a client that launched the first anti-cyberbullying app today…
The Flakes of Doom.
What’s next? “Hi there. Hope you’re well. With all the snow, your children will be surrounded by white crystals, perhaps starting them on a tragic life of cocaine addiction….”
And if being inside is so dang dangerous, why not just send the kids out to PLAY IN THE SNOW? – L
We have a snow day today!
My son has been texting away furiously all morning …getting friends organized to make money shoveling driveways. Technology is what you make it.
well, given that most kids are texting 24/7 irrespective the weather, I doubt snow makes much of a difference.
If anything it reduces the chances of cyber bullying, at least if it’s severe enough that reception is cut 🙂
Because teenagers are probably “Too cool” to play in the snow. haha
Just because *my* kid is out playing in the snow doesn’t mean *other people’s* kids are. Particularly since children of the age range most likely to be cyber bullied are also likely to be hitting an age where they consider themselves too old for playing outside.
That said, I’ve found it’s more effective to teach kids not to allow non-friends access to their online life or cell phone than to try monitoring everything that goes on. Then the little cowards have to actually face the person they want to tease rather than hiding behind a computer screen.
I agree with the tactic of having your kid keep their fb page private and only allow people on your friends list you are actually friendly with. But that still does not mean fall outs between friends won’t happen. They will. I went through several best friends over middle and high school and had former best friends begin teasing and bullying me along with others. So you can’t 100% prevent it from happening but it can at least help some.
Also teach kids how to use the good ole block feature for facebook meaning they cannot see anything your child ever posts and they can’t see what they post and that will hide a lot of the bullying and negativity away. I use it myself with regularity.
For one thing, there seems to be far too many snow days lately. But that is a whole different debate.
My kids get a snow day, they have choices.
1. Get together with friends, in person, to do something.
2. Catch up on some assignments.
3. Online rules and guidelines do not change from norm.
4. If they do not like 1 thru 3, I always have plenty of chores that can be done.
No, no, no you can’t let them out to play in the snow unsupervised until they’re 16 and have taken snow-fort building safety courses!!! Don’t you know they could die if their sno tunnel collapses! Also they may play in snowpiles on the street and have a car park on them! Literally ones of children a decade have this happen!
And what about walking in such treacherous conditions! They could slip and fall in front of a car!!! A car could lose control and end up on the sidewalk! Heck the car could even crash through the front of your house! Better stay in the basement!
Stay inside, stay safe!
/sarcasm
@Warren–What about solitary-but-unplugged activities, like reading, drawing, doing crafts, or playing a musical instrument? Are your kids allowed to do those things freely on snow days? There are a lot of constructive activities that aren’t online or screen-dependent, but also aren’t on your list. I also agree with Lollipoplover that technology is what you make it–for example, I use YouTube to do cardio dance videos in the morning, I often make videos and slideshows as gifts for friends and family members, and I also have a video blog about peace. I also belong to Writing.Com, although I’m not as active there as I’ve been in the past. So, it’s possible to waste your life away with technology, but it’s also possible to enhance your life with technology.
Anyway, about the topic at hand, looking back, I was bullied in school when I was young (around grades 4-8), and honestly, now that I remember it, a lot of the bullying seemed to happen in the winter. Now, this was all during the 90’s, before technology was sophisticated enough to make cyberbullying possible. I don’t know exactly why there seemed to be more bullying in the winter–maybe it was just mathematical probability, because in Canada, a good part of the school year happens in the winter. Maybe it was because, by the time the snow started, the social structure was firmly cemented, and people knew who was cool, and who wasn’t. Maybe the reduced hours of sunlight and increased hours of darkness made everyone feel a little depressed, and we took it out on each other. But, my point is, I don’t think that this is a new problem. I feel like bullying has always been a bigger problem in the winter, and cyberbullying may be a new symptom of that, with the advent of the Internet, and kids having laptops, smartphones, tablets, etc., at younger ages, but the problem itself has existed long before that. I don’t even really know what the solution would be, except for more initiatives like Challenge Days, to get kids to talk, and maybe more fun collaborative projects in the winter–murals, school plays, school newspapers, etc.–where the teachers could find some way for every kid to participate, so everyone’s working together towards a common goal, that produces a real, tangible end product. It wouldn’t really matter what it was, as long as it was modelling and encouraging positive behaviours, rather than just discouraging negative ones. I mean, when you’re twelve, it’s much more fun to be told, “We’re all going to be in a musical together” than “You can’t be on the Internet unsupervised.” With the first approach, the kids would have less time to be online as a natural by-product of participating in the musical (or whatever), and they’d spend more time interacting with their peers in a positive way, so they’d be less inclined to bully, even if they wanted to. Now, these kinds of solutions take time, money, and people power, but that’s because there really are no quick fixes to bullying. Ideally, there’d be collaborative projects going on all year round, changing with the seasons (school gardens in the spring and fall, student groups organizing events for the whole school, etc.), but I just think there should be more of them during the winter, in order to circumvent the “winter blahs” that can lead to hostile behaviour.
No Emily, they are not allowed to do anything like that, as they are all communistic in nature.
Now seriously, that is all part and parcel of the online rules. That they get so much time online recreationally during the day, and then must entertain themselves in other ways.
Wonder how they would market that here in Central Texas, where even on the coldest days it rarely snows. I guess we could be their summer market, for those days when it’s 100 degrees with 70% humidity and everyone’s hiding indoors.
In my experience (being picked on in middle school and seeing one of my sons endure the same thing at camps and his brief stint in charter school) the main factor in bullying was kids with unlike interests being thrown together in a highly structured, adult-directed situation where the only power they have is the ability to approve of or disapprove of others. So of course that power is what they’re going to try to use. It’s a misdirection of kids’ natural drive toward autonomy. Sad.
Also, I agree with ND–it’s good to teach kids to restrict their social media to friends, and not allow the bullies access to their profiles. The only hole in that is, for a lot of young people, friendships can change back and forth very quickly–I had a lot of “friends” who were only using me to get things, and then they’d turn around and bully me, exclude me, extort things from me, i.e., “Give me your Jos Louis, and I’ll give you BACK the markers I took from you.” That went on for a good two or three months in grade six, and it’s actually how I learned the meaning of the word “extortion.”
Anyway, this all happened long before Facebook, but I was very reluctant to cut this girl out of my life, because when she wasn’t bullying me, and when she deigned to allow me into our social circle (rather than manipulating others into collectively shunning me), she could be a lot of fun. For all the bullying, I also remember playing four-square and POGS, riding bikes on the weekends, and bonding over slushies, penny candy, and teenage magazines that we were really too young for. So, there’s a good chance that, had Facebook existed when I was in grade six, I would have been Facebook friends with Miss Hot-and-Cold. In fact, she probably would have threatened to defriend/block me on Facebook if I didn’t do what she wanted.
So, I don’t know from personal experience, but my theory is, a lot of cyberbullying among girls these days, happens the same way as the in-person bullying among girls that I experienced in my youth. I also got bullied physically, but if I remember correctly, the physical bullying was only ever done by boys.
I’m still puzzled about the hate for any “on screen” activity. Maybe because I am programmer and spend some of free time behind computer during high school and college.
Why is reading physical book better then reading the same book on screen? Why is reading junk stories in any way better then reading random blog posts? Why does writing blog post or picture drawing or video making still counts as wasted time as opposed to just hanging somewhere and chatting? I can not explain why is playing minecraft worst then playing lego – it is even much cheaper.
Why is creative or problem solving or cooperative activity on computer automatically assigned lower value then any non computer related activity?
If kids know just a little programming, they can be useful and collaborate on really useful projects. Shouldn’t we encourage those who are able and willing to do so?
I plan to teach my kids to use computer creatively and productively instead of flat out denying them access.
Warren–That’s good that the rules aren’t literally “Meet friends, do homework, or you’ll be punished with extra chores,” because that seems to unfairly favour extroverted children, while punishing introverts. I’m glad that, for all your enthusiasm about the outdoors, you can also see the value of solitary pursuits that can expand the mind.
If the way these people promote their stuff wasn’t so socially destructive, I’d admire them for their creativity.
@Casey,
I sub taught at a Elementary school in Central Texas during one of the few times it snowed. It was second grade, and I swear to you now, that was the longest day in the history of the world. All day long, the kids were asking, “is school over yet?” We could watch the snow fall outside the window. We(the rest of the teachers and I) finally gave up and took them out. We did three times that day.
The whole thing felt like a psychology experiment gone horribly wrong.
To make matters worse, they had released the High School around noon.
Yeah, go figure that one out.
I’m still puzzled about the hate for any “on screen†activity. Maybe because I am programmer and spend some of free time behind computer during high school and college.
Because too much screen time is basically destroying the ability to properly interact in “the real world”. Kids are having too much screen time, and losing the ability to properly handle face to face interaction. EG: while eating in a group of adults, they are staring at a phone, and not interacting with the people around them. They are not learning proper etiquette, and how to actually have conversations.
In the case of younger children, such as 4-5 year olds, they are losing the ability to properly play.
Why is reading physical book better then reading the same book on screen?
Tactile sensation, and improved decoding skills. Reading in good light, also is slightly better for eyes. Too much screen time can equal eye strain. Second is the ability to do proper research in ALL forms of communication. Most students today DO NOT know how to pull a bounded volume off of a shelf, search through the pages looking for the information that they need, and properly notate it. There’s plenty out there that not been digitized, and dare I say, sanitized/pc to fit a certain agenda, etc. Since the advent of texting, etc, spelling, the ability to produce a coherent research product has gone out the door.
Why is reading junk stories in any way better then reading random blog posts? Why does writing blog post or picture drawing or video making still counts as wasted time as opposed to just hanging somewhere and chatting?
===>Again, it’s the face to face interaction that’s suffering as far as the blog/texting goes. Most kids, if they are reading at all, aren’t really reading junk stories, they are reading books intended to entertain whatever age group we are talking about. Technology has its place, and while making a video, drawing a picture on the computer is not a waste of time, and can be very satisfying, but balance it out. There’s stories of kids literally across the street from each other, or sitting next to each other, and actually texting instead of communicating.
I can not explain why is playing minecraft worst then playing lego – it is even much cheaper.
===>Minecraft works up to a point, but again, it’s the actual tactile, thinking things through and using the hands to bring the creation to life. Kids who do this, are far better problem solvers, have higher creativity and again, if they are doing this with a friend, there’s the face to face interaction.
Why is creative or problem solving or cooperative activity on computer automatically assigned lower value then any non computer related activity?
===>see my above post. Again, technology has it’s place, but balance it out.
Ah, when you all have snow days, does your electricity still work? Guess the one or two storm days we have had over the last eighteen months (one of which also involved snow, yay, yay and triple yay!) the power went out – high winds playing havoc with the lines. Or do you have back-up generators or something? I know my ‘smartphone’ and the computer both have short battery lives, so no worries about cyber-anything on our ‘snow days’.
My impression is that people do not look for balance between onscreen and physical, but simply equate onscreen with “bad”. I’m ok with “do not spend all the time on coputer”, but I’m puzzled with “maximum an hour of computer per week” or “you turned on computer, either chores or go out” and similar rules.
===>
Ability to handle face to face interaction is left unused no matter what kind of solitary activity you are engaged at. It is as if you would not want kids to be engaged in focused solitary activities in their free time. Which seems to me as weird thing, I through that doing something should be encouraged more then just hanging around talking about girls.
Most kids do not use fine dinning etiquette when hanging around with friends in snow.
===>
Why are decoding skills better with physical book? Is this issue with teenagers? Full disclosure: 100% of my pleasure reading time is spend on smart phone. I did not read physical book for a long time. In any case, looking for information in physical book does not require hours of practice. It is just less practical and more time consuming.
And again, kid forced to turn off computer is less likely to engage in the kind of research you describe. Most parents do not have shelfs full of bounded volumes on all kinds of factual informations.
===>
I used junk stories as an example, because we used to read them when we were young. I see those blogs as equivalent. The alternative to texting across the street from each other is often not communicating at all. No one is going to physically visit you in order to ask something simple. They will not ask at all.
I’m not sure what you mean by kids texting instead of talking, is it with each other or with other kids? I guess that it depends a lot on what they are texting about and what kind of relationship is between them. I can imagine plenty of situations where I would consider it ok.
===>
Is tactile experience with lego as opposed to Minecraft relevant for kids older then 11 years old?
On the other hand, Minecraft is able to engage more personality types in building stuff then lego. It is larger and you need to actually study and learn in order to create. It is also more cooperative then lego, you need to own a lot of lego sets to have enough bricks for bigger cooperative project. Most people play minecraft on multiplayer.
Only minority of kids use lego to create new things. Most of them build according to instructions and then play with it as with any other toy (lego company did study on this while ago, only 10% kids liked to build).
On the balance, Minceraft and lego seem to be just about equivalent. You loose tactile experience and gain cooperation and complexity.
“Hi there. Hope you’re well. With all the snow, your children will be surrounded by white crystals, perhaps starting them on a tragic life of cocaine addiction….â€
made me think of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWkT0g3FrOk
@hineata- Oh, we have power. My clothes dryer has been running continuously and could power a third world country. Kids have been in and out and in and out so much I am humming that Who song. After shoveling out we have stayed put (as did most of the neighbors), kids sledding and playing outside all day. I fed several neighborhood kids random lunch (peanut butter and banana sandwiches- ran out of jelly)and make hot chocolate 3 times. I’ve also wiped countless wet dog paws and puddles of melted snow. I now have a gaggle of girls watching Lemony Snickets with creepy Jim Carey (this movie gave my middle daughter nightmares when she saw it first at at age 4- thought she would be forced to marry Count Olaf with bad teeth) and I honestly don’t care what they are doing at this point. Plug away!! I just don’t want to clean or wipe anything.
I’ve earned my big girl drink today. Cheers!
@Andy, I think you raise good points. Especially from a more free-range perspective, left to their own devices, what many children will WANT to do is play video games. I have a son who is almost 10. He loves video and computer games. His friends love video and computer games. I am going to assume that if you were to have introduced Minecraft to 9 and 10 year old boys in the 1950s, their moms would have had to start forcing them to go outside. Fear is one issue, certainly, but if playing in the yard is more fun than playing video games, not a single kid I know agrees. ALL of my friends have to negotiate screen time with their children, and all of their children would, more often than not, choose screen time over other activities, especially if they are alone.
Balance is needed, for sure, especially with little kids, because computer and video games can be so immediately absorbing and gratifying that they just aren’t going to make choices that will ultimately be the most fun for them if they aren’t guided. (I’m sure most of us as adults have had the experience of going down that dark rabbit hole of spending FAR too much time online, which provides instant gratification while you do it, but then ends up making you feel like you wasted your entire day, and when you think about it, you realize that a day spent doing a less immediately-gratifying but more fulfilling activity would have been better.)
But I think there’s also something to be said for letting kids decide how to choose their leisure time. Especially now that my son is older and has more responsibilities, we are much less strict about his leisure. He gets home from school around 4. He helps me out by playing with his little siblings while I make dinner. We have dinner. He does his homework. He has to be in his room with book to wind down for bedtime around 8:30 or 9. So that means he really only ends up with 2 hours or so of time where he can truly decide exactly what he wants to do. If he wants to spend that time playing Minecraft, that’s okay. We basically go by the rule that if he is doing well in school (if his behavior or attitude there goes, video game are the first thing to get pulled), if he is being respectful at home and kind to his siblings, and if he’s doing everything he needs to do, then he can decide for himself how to spend his free time.
Am I the only one who thinks the logic leap from “snow day spent indoors on screens” to “cyberbullying” is faulty? Surely the majority of kids don’t rush to cyberbully someone the moment they have some extra social media time.
@Lollipoplover – you sure have! (Earned that ‘big girl’ drink, I mean :-)!).
That was another advantage to no power, though – almost no housework worth doing, LOL! But then, apart from the elderly and the very young, just cuddling up together under duvets was enough to keep us warm – some of you must be in danger of hypothermia sans heating….
My impression is that people do not look for balance between onscreen and physical, but simply equate onscreen with “badâ€. I’m ok with “do not spend all the time on coputerâ€, but I’m puzzled with “maximum an hour of computer per week†or “you turned on computer, either chores or go out†and similar rules.
=======>Never said screen time was completely bad. Kids can have screen time too, just balance it out. I sub teach in elementary,and have been for almost twenty years. There is a marked difference in the way that kids today respond to each other, and how they interact with the world since the advent of text and almost unlimited screen time.
Ability to handle face to face interaction is left unused no matter what kind of solitary activity you are engaged at. It is as if you would not want kids to be engaged in focused solitary activities in their free time.
====> we are not talking solitary activities. The problem lies in where parents completely overschedule their kids and leave them with NO downtime, but that’s for another post. The point is that as far society as a whole is concerned, the end result of loss of interaction, people skills, is creating a generation who has no idea how to cope or problem solve.
Which seems to me as weird thing, I through that doing something should be encouraged more then just hanging around talking about girls.
===>here’s the difference. You and a girl hook up over text. You have no idea how she’s really feeling, if she likes you, etc. It’s words on a screen and everything seems to be going good. If you say something that accidentally offends her, and she suddenly cuts you off. You have no idea why.
1990’s. You and the guys are hanging at the mall. You see the girl you like walking down the hallway. Sure, your nervous, but you build your courage and go ask her. You can tell from her face, and her body language that she doesn’t think your slug meat, either. However, in this scenario, again, you say something that accidentally offends her, and from the change in her demeanor, you sense something is wrong. However, in this case, you have the visual cues to say, “Okay, you didn’t like that.”
===>
Why are decoding skills better with physical book? Is this issue with teenagers? Full disclosure: 100% of my pleasure reading time is spend on smart phone. I did not read physical book for a long time. In any case, looking for information in physical book does not require hours of practice. It is just less practical and more time consuming.
===>I’ve already stated the reasons for this. If you really want an example of what’s wrong with today’s students and how communication skills have regressed, (in fact, just a point of order and don’t take this as being derogatory, you used “loose” instead of “lose” in a response. I see this all the time.) look up examples of high quality (that’s the key here) of research papers, etc done by High Schoolers in say, the 70’s, versus today. The 70’s students work is going to much much higher quality, with proper punctuation, proper word use, etc.
With Iphones and other small electronic devices, eye strain is far more common.
And again, kid forced to turn off computer is less likely to engage in the kind of research you describe. Most parents do not have shelfs full of bounded volumes on all kinds of factual informations.
=====>as I have said before,the computer can be a wonderful tool, and I have no issue with kids using them, but balance it out. My own nieces and nephews are in the same boat. They barely talk to anyone outside the immediate family, they are not sure how and play on the computer/games for hours.
===>
I used junk stories as an example, because we used to read them when we were young. I see those blogs as equivalent. The alternative to texting across the street from each other is often not communicating at all.
===>not necessarily, and that’s where the problem comes in. It creates isolationism. They SHOULD be going across the street and talking to that kid/friend.
Most kids would not be using a blog such as this. They will go something that interest them, and post/talk on that.
No one is going to physically visit you in order to ask something simple. They will not ask at all.
I’m not sure what you mean by kids texting instead of talking, is it with each other or with other kids?
====>at the Christmas party for my Mom’s business, one of her employees has two daughters, 13 and 12. They spent almost the entire time texting each other. This is what I’m talking about.
===>
Is tactile experience with lego as opposed to Minecraft relevant for kids older then 11 years old?
On the other hand, Minecraft is able to engage more personality types in building stuff then lego. It is larger and you need to actually study and learn in order to create. It is also more cooperative then lego, you need to own a lot of lego sets to have enough bricks for bigger cooperative project. Most people play minecraft on multiplayer.
===>Kids learn differently. My nephew is hooked on Minecraft, but he started on Legos. There’s a marked difference in the way he thinks and builds things. It’s more organized and planned better.
During the 90’s I taught 5th graders basic electronics. I had a ten year old female student who was probably one of the smartest kids I have ever taught. She repaired a piece of equipment for me, and got me out of a bind. She gathered all the tools, the replacement part, and went to work. She had to safely deal with 650 volts DC (using a meter to measure the voltage to make sure it was correct after she replaced the part.)
There’s the difference between real life and seeing it on a screen.
Only minority of kids use lego to create new things. Most of them build according to instructions and then play with it as with any other toy (lego company did study on this while ago, only 10% kids liked to build).
On the balance, Minceraft and lego seem to be just about equivalent. You loose tactile experience and gain cooperation and complexity.
But you also the face to face interaction, and the kid next you saying “hey, wait a minute, what’s that?” and pointing to the problem.
=======>Anyway, sorry for the thread jack.
Snow day, what the hell? When I was in school (Minnesota and Montana), there was no such thing. It could blizzard to where you could barely FIND the school, and we still had school. What IS with these wimps today??!
And then we came home and went back outside to play in the snow.
@Reziac – and I bet, like me, you walked uphill to school – both ways, LOL!
Our schools in my area (lower North Island) had one/two days off a couple of years ago because the plumbing and heating couldn’t cope with the once-in-seventy year snow – they’re not built for it. And other weather bad enough to close the schools (twice last year, very unusual year) are generally the kind where multiple trees are blocking roads, sheds or roofs might be blowing around and power is off. Not much point in heading to school when it is in danger of blowing away :-).
That said, sign me up with the wimps who close schools for snow up where you are – who would willingly open the door when it’s snowing? LOL! Y’all deserve medals, far as this temperate climate wimp is concerned :-). Going down the shops in a hurricane, no problem – but standing around in all that cold stuff, bugger that!
@Art First of all, interesting exchange, thank you.
Focused solitary activity is downtime for many people including kids. It is need for introverts, especially if they spend already whole day with other people. I know that being in school is not the same as just playing with kids, but it is interaction with strangers and it always was tiring for introverts.
Introverts should be allowed to have their downtime too. Communication with strangers is not downtime for them.
Why do you equate interaction with problem solving? If you are doing something alone, then you have to problem solve. If you are playing in group of kids, then there is much less problem solving needed. Unless you are the fastest one, someone else will solve the problem and simply tell you the solution.
====>
Did people really used to hook up with random girls in mall in 1990’s? Never really seen that. Most relationships (including mine) I know started in very different way. I do not find this way of finding partners attractive.
Anyway, I thought American women do not like being hit on this way. At least when it comes to American tech conferences, such act may lead to huge outrage with lengthy flamewars about sexism, misogyny and being woman unfriendly. And as far as I know, plenty of American companies would consider this firing offense.
Is the hooking up over text messages real or made up example? In any case, neither scenario seem to me as a model one.
Just to play the game: I would say, that in both case the thing that was said/written just before change of mood was the bad one. Either last exchange or last text message is what offended her. In either case, you will not learn more unless you ask and she is willing to answer honestly. I would not bet on it through.
===>
English is second language for me, so I rely on spell check. On the other hand, if there would be no internet, I would not be writing English at all.
The only reason I found in your text was tactile experience and eye strain. But, kids read less then before overall which may contribute to the decline more then used technology. If the computer is off limits, they still do not read. Isnt it the case that american schools focus less on writing now? Wide acceptance of electronic books and quality readers is to new development. I doubt current 12 years old grew up reading them – they did not read at all.
And again, if they read, then they are not interacting with other people. Reading is solitary activity. They can not do both things at the same time.
===>
“Most kids would not be using a blog such as this. They will go something that interest them, and post/talk on that.”
That is exactly what we are doing now.
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“But you also the face to face interaction, and the kid next you saying “hey, wait a minute, what’s that?†and pointing to the problem.”
You misunderstood me. The complexity in minecraft comes from interactions between brick types and various mobs behavior. For example, both lava and water flow and when they meet each other something happen. You can create “electronic circuits”, devices, traps etc.
Basically, you need to learn more when playing Minecraft. I’m not saying that that gained knowledge is useful outside of game. Lego in comparison does not require much thinking or problem solving, it is mostly art work.
Advice from player to player may happen in both types of game, so I do not see difference there. How does lego teach more organizational skills? I do not see it at all. Could his difference (against what?) in the way he thinks and builds things be result of personality or overall parenting?
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Also that girls electrotechnical abilities were exceptional. It is unfair to compare exceptional kid then with average kid now.
I can find similar example with above average smart kid learning and creating technologies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mwKq7_JlS8 . I did one of those free online college courses and there was 14 years old romanian boy. He made it to 2/3 of the course, which is significant achievement (then it became too difficult for him).
Opportunistic vultures!
Art – It seems like most of your arguments here are predominantly comparing apples to oranges. Extroverts to introverts. All with the assumption that taking away screen time automatically means that kids will seek out relationships in person. Lack of screen time doesn’t naturally equate to more personal interaction for the 40% of the population that is introverted. Those people will simply seek a different solitary activity.
The point that Andy seems to making is that there seems to be a huge technology is bad view. It is something to be strictly controlled and limited, but there also seems to be a corresponding belief that the comparable real world activity has great value and can be done to the hearts content. Drawing a picture on paper is viewed as a positive activity while designing a webpage a negative. Reading Twilight in paperback is considered somehow better than reading War and Peace on a Kindle. Playing legos alone is somehow better than playing Minecraft. And so on.
I happen to agree with Andy that solitary activities are solitary activities and no one version has less value simply because it is tied to a screen.
“Did people really used to hook up with random girls in mall in 1990′s?”
I don’t think he is talking about random girls, Andy. I think he is talking about seeing some girl from school that you have a crush at the mall and talking to her. And, yes, that happened quite frequently in my teen years in the 80’s. Not at the mall, but downtown or at some restaurant or something similar.
@Art First of all, interesting exchange, thank you.
Focused solitary activity is downtime for many people including kids. It is need for introverts, especially if they spend already whole day with other people. I know that being in school is not the same as just playing with kids, but it is interaction with strangers and it always was tiring for introverts.
Introverts should be allowed to have their downtime too.
===> You welcome.
There’s no question about this, not just introverts but ALL kids need downtime and doing something they actually enjoy. I’ve had kids break down in class because they were so overstressed and so tired from everything they were doing. There’s an afterschool program called YMCA, it’s basically afterschool daycare, and kids have gotten into trouble for saying they didn’t want to participate in the activities they had planned and that they just wanted to sit and read.
Why do you equate interaction with problem solving?
==>because the kids have to work together to solve the problem. Sometimes you can have multiple solutions to the same problem and they must decide which one is the best. But the key is that each kid gives input, and feels important to the project, if that makes sense.
If you are doing something alone, then you have to problem solve.
====>well, yeah, that with the case with the ten year old who repaired the equipment.
If you are playing in group of kids, then there is much less problem solving needed.
==>not necessarily, if they are playing a game, they have to decide on the rules, how the game is played, etc. This is working together for a common goal.
Is the hooking up over text messages real or made up example? In any case, neither scenario seem to me as a model one.
====>it’s very real. Kids as young as First Grade (six year olds) have phones, and as they get older, the phones become more prevalent. By 5th grade (ten year olds) texting is the primary form of communication if they have a phone, at least 70% do.
Just to play the game: I would say, that in both case the thing that was said/written just before change of mood was the bad one. Either last exchange or last text message is what offended her. In either case, you will not learn more unless you ask and she is willing to answer honestly. I would not bet on it through.
===>again, because you can’t see her reactions, and if she’s mad enough to cut you off, then you have no real way to fix it if she doesn’t respond. On the other hand, if it’s face to face, then you can tell she’s mad, and then work toward fixing it. It becomes a personal thing.
English is second language for me, so I rely on spell check. On the other hand, if there would be no internet, I would not be writing English at all.
====>Hell, English is a second language is for half of American kids right now. 🙂
The only reason I found in your text was tactile experience and eye strain. But, kids read less then before overall which may contribute to the decline more then used technology. If the computer is off limits, they still do not read. Isnt it the case that american schools focus less on writing now? Wide acceptance of electronic books and quality readers is to new development. I doubt current 12 years old grew up reading them – they did not read at all.
=====> I don’t want to get into a long complicated post about what’s happening in the education system right now, but essentially, the schools are seriously turning kids off reading because of certain “reading for points” programs than are in place. It heavily discourages reading for fun, and makes it more of a chore. Same for writing.
And again, if they read, then they are not interacting with other people. Reading is solitary activity. They can not do both things at the same time.
====>Agreed, as a response to Donna’s post, I understand that we are basically talking about introverts vs extroverts. MY point is that balance is needed between screen time and real life.
You misunderstood me. The complexity in minecraft comes from interactions between brick types and various mobs behavior. For example, both lava and water flow and when they meet each other something happen. You can create “electronic circuitsâ€, devices, traps etc.
Basically, you need to learn more when playing Minecraft. I’m not saying that that gained knowledge is useful outside of game. Lego in comparison does not require much thinking or problem solving, it is mostly art work.
====>Okay,I think I can sum this up with two main points. You are sick and need surgery, you have the choice of two doctors. One doctor learned by cutting the tumour out by watching it on a screen, and another who learned by actually removing the same tumour from a real person (cadaver). Which one would you want. Second point, in the case of the ten year old female student. While messing with 650 volts DC is probably not a good idea to begin with for a ten year old, even though it was necessary, BECAUSE she was taught how to handle it properly, then she was immediately able to use that skill safely, she will never forget it. That’s the difference.
The complexity in minecraft comes from interactions between brick types and various mobs behavior. For example, both lava and water flow and when they meet each other something happen. You can create “electronic circuitsâ€, devices, traps etc.
====> I do understand about Minecraft, in fact some schools here are using it as a teaching tool.My nephew built a house and wired it for electricity. It definitely has it’s advantages. The problem lies in applying those skills in the real world.
Also that girls electrotechnical abilities were exceptional. It is unfair to compare exceptional kid then with average kid now.
===>Short story, smarter kids here are actively being discouraged from using their abilities to their full potential.
More later on all of this.
About the screen time versus real time debate, I think people are missing that it’s not necessarily either/or; it can be both/and. Every morning, I wake up and do a cardio dance video on my computer; either on YouTube, or just one that I have. Once in a blue moon, I’ll do yoga instead, if I’m looking for something easier, or recuperating an injury. In that case, I’m interacting with the screen, but also exercising in real life, getting my heart pumping, and improving my co-ordination, strength, flexibility, etc. I also take classes in person from time to time, at the YMCA where I volunteer. That’s more interactive, because the instructor can actually see the students, and provide corrections, encourage water breaks when people are looking thirsty, and sometimes even ask for input–higher or lower intensity song next? Should we go to Wheel or Shoulder Stand, or stay in Bridge? However, the major drawback of that is, the classes are only offered at specific times, at that specific place, and it’s in public. So, sometimes people don’t go, because the times don’t fit their schedule, or the YMCA isn’t convenient for them to get to, or they’re self-conscious about other people seeing them attempting to do Zumba for the first time. For people in any of these situations, videos are a great solution–they can be done any time, in the privacy of the home. People are more likely to do things that are easier logistically, so for some people, it’s easier for them to get into the habit of exercising through videos. Other people need the in-person motivation of a physical class, but I think it’s good that both options exist.
Also, if you go on YouTube, you’ll see tons of tutorials for arts and crafts, home repairs, DIY projects, etc. For example, I learned how to make a chevron bracelet out of embroidery floss, by watching YouTube videos. This was before Rainbow Loom (and, I kind of want a set, even though I’m technically too old for it), but I found it really helpful. The tutorial was done by a teenage girl, who was making the bracelet, slowly, as she filmed it, so the people in Viewerland could follow along. Apparently, there are tons of tutorials now for Rainbow Loom as well, mostly done by kids. I have a vlog about peace, and just before Remembrance Day, I posted a video tutorial about making white peace poppies. It’s not perfect, because I filmed it on my laptop webcam, since I don’t have a proper video camera, but again, useful skill. I taught an in-person workshop a few days later, but the video one has the potential to reach more people. I’m also a big fan of the T-shirt surgery videos, because it encourages creativity and recycling at the same time, by showing people how to repurpose old T-shirts into things they can wear or use.
Anyway, to make a long-winded point, sometimes video tutorials are better than being taught in person. A video can be paused, rewound, and fast-forwarded. A video won’t get impatient with you if you don’t get something right away. A video won’t get its feelings hurt if you decide that the double starburst Rainbow Loom bracelet is too difficult for you, and you’d rather stick with fishtail for a while. They’re not perfect for everything; for example, I’d never teach a clarinet lesson by video, because it’d be impossible to write on a student’s music (I’ve only ever done it lightly in pencil), and harder to correct their technique, and the sound can get compromised by the limitations of the video quality. However, video tutorials are great for a lot of other things, and they don’t necessarily always preclude having a tactile experience–in fact, sometimes they can help facilitate it. This isn’t a new thing either–there have been exercise shows, cooking shows, arts and crafts shows, DIY and home renovation shows, etc., on television practically since the advent of television itself, and when home VCR’s became a thing, people would tape them so they could pause/rewind/fast-forward. So, YouTube is just a more updated version of that. I have to wonder, how many of these parents in the “limited screentime” camp, spent HOURS in the 80’s, gyrating and grapevining around their living rooms to Jane Fonda, and honestly don’t see the connection?
@Donna Yes, you understood me right. The mall example now makes more sense.
Group problem solving is one way of problem solving and solitary another. I believe that one should know how to do both and use the one appropriate to situation. That being sad, I get better sense of achievement if I solve a problem without hints from others and I tend to remember the solution much longer then.
This topic reminds me of one prejudice/stereotype people here have about American companies. They are believed to have a lot of meetings, much more then comparable companies from other countries. It is as if they would want to group solve everything. Maybe there is something on it?
===>
Group decision making and negotiations are only one kind of problems you have to solve. Involved thinking is different than one needed for “technical” or “puzzle like” problems. Both are important I believe.
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I agree that emotions are harder to guess from mails and texts. But, I believe that the 10 years old girl will not be angry forever and 10 years old boy will learn in time how to appropriately text with girls. I think that this is kind of problem that next generation will be much better at solving then we are.
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I googled “reading for points” and I guess it would discourage me too. Reading for pleasure and reading for recall are two very different things.
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I would want a doctor that learned theory first, then did it on cadaver and optimally also some other real people.
I think I understand better now where you are coming from. I do not advocate learning electronics from computer only, without really soldiering parts together. Simulations and what not goes only so far, then you have to do the real thing.
Minecraft can help develop creativity, problem solving, cooperation and what not, but I believe it is a game above all. I do not advocate using it for learning. I would prefer the school to teach “real” electronics over red stone. Electronics can teach problem solving too and is useful too.
My point was that Minecraft is as good way of spending play time as physical games. Mandatory Minecraft risks to become “Minecraft for points” anyway.
===>
“Short story, smarter kids here are actively being discouraged from using their abilities to their full potential.”
That is sad. Our education system has long experience with doing the same. It was intentionally build that way and just can not get rid of that legacy.
@Emily,
Yup, that’s pretty much it.
@Jon
This topic reminds me of one prejudice/stereotype people here have about American companies. They are believed to have a lot of meetings, much more then comparable companies from other countries. It is as if they would want to group solve everything. Maybe there is something on it?
====>this is very much in the current climate of American companies. Sometimes, it’s even taken to the extreme and is so broken up and spread out, that each member doesn’t know what they are working on.
Group decision making and negotiations are only one kind of problems you have to solve. Involved thinking is different than one needed for “technical†or “puzzle like†problems. Both are important I believe.
====>Exactly but involved thinking can go both ways. Some problems work better solved singularly, some work better as a group.
I agree that emotions are harder to guess from mails and texts. But, I believe that the 10 years old girl will not be angry forever and 10 years old boy will learn in time how to appropriately text with girls. I think that this is kind of problem that next generation will be much better at solving then we are.
===>well ten is a little young for true boy/girl interactions. At that age, they are just beginning to try start to figure each other out and are shifting out of the “play” stage of development. However, late Middle School, (12 y/o and up) then yeah. The difference is before texting, etc, the boy had to actually make an effort to talk to the girl, again, it’s all about that face to face interaction.
I googled “reading for points†and I guess it would discourage me too. Reading for pleasure and reading for recall are two very different things.
====>Look up Accelerated Reader-criticism
I think I understand better now where you are coming from. I do not advocate learning electronics from computer only, without really soldiering parts together. Simulations and what not goes only so far, then you have to do the real thing.
====>Exactly.
“About the screen time versus real time debate, I think people are missing that it’s not necessarily either/or; it can be both/and.”
I think you are missing the point, Emily. Nobody is saying that life should not include both screen and non-screen activities and options.
The question is why are activities in the tactile world valued at such a higher rate than very comparable activities on the computer by so many? I’ve never heard in my life a parent say “my child is only allowed to paint for 30 minutes a day” or “my kid can only play legos on the weekend.” And, yet, take those same basic skill sets and move them to the virtual world and suddenly they are time wasters that need to be limited.
And, in truth, the same kids are often not engaging in painting and web design or legos and Minecraft. It isn’t a matter of a kid turning off the computer and painting a picture for awhile. It is a matter of the kid who is into the more acceptable painting gets to do it until his heart’s content while his brother, the graffic designer, is only allowed to engage in his artistic passion for 30 minutes a day.
Other than eye strain, I still have yet to see a reason why painting is a more valuable activity than web design. Or paperback over Kindle. Or Cracked magazine over the Onion. Board game over computer game. I’ve seen reasons why we should socialize in person more often rather than texting all the time and bizarre equations of playtime with the practice of medicine, but that doesn’t really get to the question that Andy was asking to start with.
Personally, the answer is that we place all screens together in one box. Let’s face it, TV is kinda a brain drain. It is an extremely passive activity. We like to throw anything with a screen into that brain-drain box too, but computers and computer games are not passive activities. They are simply sedentary activities, no worse than any other sedentary activity and a lot better than some.
@Donna–I wasn’t missing the point; I was bringing up the combination screen/tactile activities as its own point. I never said one negative word against computer games, and in fact, I think a lot of computer games are as educational as they are fun (for example, Tetris, Little Big Planet, and The Sims, as well as Minecraft). However, I was talking about “combination” activities, that involve watching a tutorial on a screen, while physically doing the activity, or making something, in real life.
@Donna On the paperback over Kindle difference: there is one way in which e-readers are superior over paperbacks – classical literature is available for free (legally – on project gutenberg).
If your kid is willing to read classical literature, buying Android tablet is cheaper then buying all those books. Plus, it takes less shell space at the same time.
It is kind of sad that not many people take advantage of this.
Schools around here or 2 hour delayed or closed because its cold. Yep, no snow, no ice. Just cold. 8 degrees or less. I am shaking my head. That is why God invented Winter coats and mittens and heating units.
Andy – I have downloaded a few of the classics. I actually thought the way that many here seem to until I got a Kindle, then I loved it. I do still like reading regular books sometimes, but you can’t beat a Kindle for ease.
Another way Kindle beats paperbacks is world-wide accessibility. Books are not readily available everywhere. Reading is not really part of the Samoan culture and the climate is destructive to everything. We had some actual books passing around the ex-pats on the island, but if I had not had a Kindle, I would have largely not read at all for almost 2 years. There is no way that I could have afforded to have large numbers of books shipped to the South Pacific. And I ended up reading a ton while there because there was little else to do.
And travel. I remember trying to find English books when I spent summers in France and Italy. Problem now solved. It is so nice to travel with a Kindle full of books instead of bulky paperbacks. I’m trying to decide if the 8 year old is now responsible enough for her own Kindle before we fly to California in March. Considering she left her entire backpack on a bus in New Zealand last year, I’m torn.
@Donna I was convinced only after I tried it too. I do not have kindle, I use smartphone. I mostly love that it is in my pocket all the time and opens book exactly where I left it in 3 seconds. Plus, requires only one hand.
I can read few minutes while waiting in store, for bus, while strolling sleeping kid etc. Physical book is much less practical in such situations and I read mostly in such moments.
Search function has its advantages too, especially when reading non fiction.