Hi Readers! Ever look at a map of the local sex offenders, the ones with little dots showing where the guys live who prey upon helpless little children? Well, as of this week, there are two dots that won’t come off until the guys die of old age — which could be quite a while.
Right now, they’re both 16.
The boys committed their crime at age 14. And just what was it?
Horseplay. Stupid, disgusting horseplay. According to NJ.com, rynrrnrrri
the kids pulled down their pants and sat on two 12-year-olds’ faces for the simple reason that they “thought it was funny” and were trying to get their “friends to laugh.”
That’s how one of the teens explained himself to a Somerset County, N.J., judge back in 2008. (His friend headed off a trial by pleading guilty to the same act.)
The judge then considered what he had in front of him, and rather than think, “These punks could use some community service time and maybe a suspension from school — plus an in-person apology to the kids they sat on,” he thought, “These two are sex offenders.”
After all, what they had done was, technically, “criminal sexual contact” with intent to humiliate or degrade. And so sex offenders he ruled they were. That meant they were subject to Megan’s Law. In New Jersey, such offenders, even as young as 13, have to register for life.
This past week, the young men appealed their sentence and lost.
What does it mean to be on the sex offender list? First of all, the public knows where you live. Websites and newspapers can publish your photo. So can TV news. Parents can warn their kids never to go near you.
In many states, registered sex offenders have to live a certain distance from where kids congregate, be that a school, day care center, park or bus stop. So these young men may have to move to the sticks.
When they get a job (Good luck! Not many places are dying to hire registered sex offenders), they have to notify the authorities of where they’re working.
They also have to re-register four times a year, and if they miss an appointment, they can go to jail. In some communities, they have to turn their lights off on Halloween. In others, they have to answer the door saying, “I’m a registered sex offender.” All because of this stupid prank they pulled at age 14.
And meantime, their presence as a dot on the map is terrifying everyone in their neighborhood. After all, they’re on the sex offender list!
“These lists were originally conceived by most of the voters who cheered them on as lists of people who had some sort of psychological compulsion to sexual predation,” explains Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute. People assume anyone on it is “a permanent menace.”
These guys are more like Dennis the Menace, which is why we have to change the criteria that land folks on the registry. These young men were never “predators.” And as the years go by, the idea that they pose a danger to children will become even more ridiculous. When you’re 20, 30, 40 — 80! — you don’t do the things you did as a 14-year-old trying to impress your buddies. Why is Megan’s Law blind to human nature?
If it were making kids safer, maybe we could overlook how obtuse it is. But a 2008 study found that, in New Jersey at least — where little Megan Kanka, for whom the law is named, was murdered — the law showed no effect in reducing the number of sexual re-offenses or reducing the number of victims.
It’s time to change the law and the registry. Otherwise, too many of the dots on a sex offender map will be victims, not criminals. — L
I don’t think they qualify as sex offenders but they are seriously disturbed and serious jerks and bullies so I don’t find myself feeling very sorry for them. Sounds like the type of guys that bullied me when I was 14. Did they sit on other guys or girl’s faces? That makes the deciding decision to me. If it was girls faces, yes that is sexual and disgusting and maybe they should be on there. If it was to pull a prank on another guy, not as sexual but still disgusting and they should do hard time in juvenile for it if they were doing it to bully another boy or girl.
A slap on the wrist is not enough. I am ready to take a hard stance on no bullying. Plus you know, sitting on someone’s face might give them pink eye.
Normally I totally agree with FRK, but not in this case. 14 is way too old to be pulling pranks like that. And Dennis the Menace–are you kidding? Sitting naked on someone’s face is not a mischievous, slap-on-the-wrist kind of thing.
Dolly, how is it not sexual if it was on a guy if it IS sexual if it was on a girl?
This seems to me to be somewhere between teenage jerk and sex offender. I bet it was very humiliating and disturbing to the victim. And while I would hate to punish a fourteen year old for the rest of his life, I hardly think this is the same thing as Dennis the Menace who was like what, six? And he walked through his neighbor’s flower bed. Not the same thing at all. But I don’t think they should be on the sex offender list forever, but I can’t condone blowing off severe bullying as normal for teenage boys, because I don’t think it is.
When I was in high school and on the wrestling team ROTC too for that matter guys did stupid crap like this all the time. Shoot in college the girls soccer team did something similar for initiation. These boys deserve punishment sure but sex offenders they are not.
It would be easier to have an opinion about this if there were a little more context. How did the 12-year-olds feel about it? Did they know them? Did a horseplay situation just get out of control, or were they targeted? Did they feel terrorized or threatened, or did they just think it was gross and stupid? Did these guys have a history of similar behaviors? If a judge listed them as sex offenders, I would think the 12-year-olds (and their families) felt pretty strongly about it being a threatening situation. I really do think that 14 is pretty young to be on a sex offender list, though, unless there is an extreme circumstance. The reason we consider people under 18 to be minors is that their immature logic leads to a lot of less-than-logical decisions.
Okay let me rephrase it Uly: it would be sexual if they did it and either of the parties were homosexual. Then there would be something sexual about it. But if none of the boys are homosexual then it would not be a sexual thing to me. I guess if they did it to two lesbian girls and they were two homosexual guys then it would not be sexual either. Basically if anyone’s privates are being forced on someone that may be attracted to them or that they are attracted to that makes it sexual in my opinion. That is just my opinion though, I don’t know the law about that.
Anyone not seen the Rikishi “Stink Face” from WWE? Its been years since Rikishi (who was built like a Sumo wrestler) wrestled but part of his gimmick was he would throw people in the corner and mash his butt against people’s noses, and since he wore a sumo type pair of wrestling tights, there was plenty of skin on face contact. More recently the female WWE wrestler “Kelly Kelly” has used this maneuver. I would suspect the idea for what the boys did came from there.
I agree with Mika on more details needed and intent needed. If it was good friends who just got out of hand, then not probably a big deal. If they were being terrorized and harassed though then it is a very big deal.
I think the terminology is teabagging. Its gross but its where a guy puts his balls on another guys chin while usually the guy is asleep and gets a picture of it. I know some crude guys that told me this,.
Dolly: So if a guy rapes a lesbian that’s OK? Because the person whose genitals were forced on isn’t attracted to them?
Whether we “feel sorry for them” or not, is missing a larger point. Do you feel sorry for their future neighbours, hovering nervously over their children fearing for their safety with a “sexual predator” in their midst?
If I take a look at a sexual predator map, I want to see nothing but offenders who actually pose a risk. These boys, as far as I can tell, do not. Otherwise, the map/list is so diluted as to be a useless source of information.
So, yes–their behaviour was disgusting. Yes–they should have known better. Yes–they deserve a punishment of some kind. But the registry is not a punishment as much as it’s a source of information, so their punishment should be something else.
Are these boys very likely to ever sit on someone’s face again when they’re 17 or 20? Is it a deep, dark, twisted urge that led them to the behaviour, and will give them urges they can’t control throughout life, to sit on innocent faces? It face-sitting a behaviour known to escalate into worse and worse offenses?
Bottom line–punish them as seems fit, and leave the the registry alone, so that it actually has meaning.
I agree with Sarah. I don’t like the playing down of the sexual assault of those two girls as “horseplay”, a “prank” and that the boys are “victims”.
All the more reason to abolish this registry once and for all.
Dolly, sexual assault is sexual assault even if there is no attraction going on.
Many times, in fact, homophobes attack gay people sexually.
This was dumb, but anyone that thinks 14 year old boys aren’t dumb, doesn’t know many 14 year old boys. (I know, I know. Your snowflake would NEVER.)
@Poppy – thanks for pointing out the real point here.
Everyone else – leave the bullying aspect for another time. That’s not the point here.
I had no idea that they could be marked with this so young.
I just watched the interview with Jacee Dugard and the police were just marking time visiting her captor’s house, precisely because the law made no distinction between Garrido and the thousands of non-predatory sex offenders that they need to visit all the time. This is just one of the costs of putting everyone on the list.
You are absolutely correct about the repercussions of being on the sex offender list. Also, forget about ever visiting a school for anything, including seeing any program for your own children. There is also vandalizing of your car and home. This is a modern day witch hunt.
Like the witch hunts of old, don’t associate with anyone on the list because it is contagious. Seriously, because psychologists say predators were often abused as children, older children who even talk to someone on the list can be seen as suspicious.
The kids in the article needed some anti-bullying training, community service, but the sex offender list is ridiculous. There are more people on that list than you know who are just jerks, not predators. Police are spending a lot of time and governments are spending money to keep track of these people also. That money could be better spent on programs to help idiot kids like these get it together and become empathetic and productive adults.
This is dumb immature bullies being, well, dumb immature bullies and they should be punished accordingly. They should be in a lot of trouble and be made to understand the gravity of their actions. There are many ways to do this. Education, community service and outreach, suspension or long detentions, alternative school and definitely therapy.
But the sex offender list? Please. That thing is an out of hand travesty of justice. It’s used as a catch-all solution and should be abolished since it seems judges can’t use it correctly. Judges need to be more pro-active with educating these sorts of children/teenagers without resorting to the sex offenders list.
Kara- excellent point! Resources are stretched even more because authorities have to spend time with every kid who did something stupid like this, peed in the open, mooned a person – for the rest of their lives. It’s ridiculous.
Forgot to add….then they have less time to spend on the people that are the real threats.
I don’t consider actions of anyone less than 25 mature, little less someone that’s 14.
I wish more people in this country use a bit more of critical thinking; the judge certainly has not.
sex offender list, suspensions? how is that supposed to address the problem. stop watching f..in CSI NY or Nancy Grace and other stupid shows.
I don’t feel sorry for the punishment the kids are getting but the registry should be for crimes and offenders that are most likely to do it again. These 14 yrs olds will not do this again and thus don’t belong on the registry anyone with a brain can see that.
Poppy has it right.
Another sad aspect to this is that the victims of this abuse are now victims of sexual abuse and will be viewed as at risk of being sexual abusers now. All the kids involved have records that could be used against them. That is why I call this a witch hunt. People view you as contagious just by being involved, whether or not you are the victim or the perpetrator. It is circular reasoning.
I totally agree. I used to check the list in Chicago. Every once in a while I’d see some young kid on the list. Date raper? Maybe? Kid diddler? Could be? Under age girlfriend with irate parents when he was in high school? Most likely!
Check out this example.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/a-young-man-struggles-with-the-sex-offender-label/
Couple thoughts:
When I read this on Balko’s site, I got the impression that the judge didn’t really have any discretion whether or not to designate them as sex offenders; it was automatic based on the particular offense they were charged with.
We should all know that while it’s a very common belief that children who were sexually abused will tend to become abusers themselves (sometimes stated as “unless they get therapy”), there’s no actual evidence for this in the literature. This seems to be an urban legend that sprung from the observation that prepubescent children who are sexually aggressive toward other children have often been abused themselves. But that’s quite different from the popular belief, and note that if the popular belief were true, it would be rather strange that while victims are disproportionately female, abusers are disproportionately male.
The highest incarceration rate in the world, do-not-fly lists, TSA pornoscanners, zero tolerance, kids tried as adults, the war on some drugs, no-knock warrants, harassed photographers, perp walks, too-big-to-fail, SLAPP lawsuits, secret prisons, torture, these are a few of my favorite things.
I just read a blog by a foreign wife in Japan that I thought would be right up your alley, Lenore.
http://shinshuulife.blogspot.com/2011/07/neighbourhood-danger-spots.html
The judge may have some input into what charge a juvenile ultimately admits to but registry offenses are usually defined by statute. If the boy admits to an offense requiring sex registry, the judge can’t change that short of refusing to take the admission to that offense.
I agree 100% with Poppy. We should not be debating whether or not these boys are creeps that need to be punished. The point is – what is the sex offender registry suppose to accomplish? NOBODY should be on the list unless they are someone who you would be frightened to have live next door. Rapists and child molesters, period! Otherwise, it looks like there are thousands and thousands of rapists and child molesters running around when maybe less then half of those on the list fit that category. I can’t imagine anyone saying that these boys shouldn’t be punished – I would even agree that time in juvenille detention wouldn’t be too harsh.
It’s a travesty that these kids are on the sex offenders registry. Obviously a 14 year old is different than an adult, that’s why we don’t let 14 year olds drive, vote, drink, smoke, have jobs (generally speaking), etc. If an adult did this to a 12 year old–that would be an entirely different story but to think for a moment that these 14 year olds need to be branded for life is simply wrong and it’s barbarian of us as a society to punish these kids in that way. (Which is not to say they don’t deserve punishment–they do, but not the kind that brands one for life.)
Sex offender registry? Certainly not. There’s very few people who should legitimately be on there. However, their actions were disgusting and horrible. If someone did the same thing to my daughter, I hardly think Dennis the Menace would be the term I’d use.
Wow. Yeah. It was different in 1982 when I was this age. And when I think of what the nasty 10-year-old boys did to me when I was a four-year-old girl back in the 1970s, well, those kids would most definitely have ended up on a registry! Heck, I’m starting to think that kids who are playing “doctor” with each other are going to start ending up on these lists, if the parents who witness such behaviour, or hear about it, decide that “something must be done.”
It seems that most of this comes from the reporting of the “crimes.” Back when I was a kid, even downright sociopathic behaviour from kids younger than 15, unless it involved a knife or a gun, was pretty much dispelled as “bullying,” and the rest of us kids had to suck it up and deal with it. I didn’t appreciate this laissez-faire attitude by adults at the time, since I was a “victim,” and I wanted a sense of responsibility and fairness.
In the face of the face-sitting incident, I think there must be a happy medium between “boys will be boys” and boys becoming “registered sex offenders” for life at age 14!
In the face of the face-sitting incident, I think there must be a happy medium between “boys will be boys†and boys becoming “registered sex offenders†for life at age 14!
I’m not sure if there’s a *happy* medium, but how about this: If we MUST have a sex offender registry (and I can see the potential for good in it) we a. restrict it to likely repeat offenders with b. clear information on what crime they committed, crimes that are c. actually serious and worrisome and d. allow some provision or possibility to move OFF the list after a length of time of good behavior, particularly for youth offenders.
I do agree with those who think it’s not just some harmless prank, but I’m reluctant to punish people for life for almost anything they did at the age of 14. Oh, there are a few things, but this isn’t one of them.
mollie: What you’re predicting has already come to pass. Kids under 10 have wound up on the registries for “playing doctor”.
KarenW: Probably a lot less than half. A few years ago the Georgia sex offender was audited and the researchers found that out of the roughly 26,000 on the list, about 1,500 of them could realistically be considered dangerous to children and only about 200 could be considered “predatory”.
Fourteen-year-old boys are not exactly models of maturity. What they did was stupid, immature, and definitely not funny. Things like that happened fairly often when I was growing up in the ’70s. It seems like half the boys I went to high school with would be considered sex offenders today because they would moon or point their genitals at other kids’ faces, pee in public, or streak. But they outgrew that behavior. Back then it was considered boys being boys and normal teasing. They certainly wouldn’t have been on a sex offender registry for life because of adolescent stupidity/immaturity.
When I was about 7 or 8, I was playing at a neighbor boy’s house. My neighbor was my age. He wanted to show me how he could aim for certain rocks in his back yard and hit them with his urine stream. He would say, “That rock’s on fire! I’m going to put out the fire!” Then he’d proceed to aim for it and pee. He then asked me to pee standing up. I dropped my pants and proceeded to get them more wet than the rocks. He made fun of me for not being able to hit a rock from 20 paces, then we went back to playing (with our pants on). That’s when he realized why girls don’t pee standing up. We played together many more times over the years, but never peed in front of each other again. It’s hard to believe that both of us may have ended up on a sex offender registry if our parents found out what we did.
As people above said, sex offender registries should be for actual dangerous sex offenders like molesters and rapists. Kids who do stupid things like those boys did should apologize to the boys whose faces they sat on and possibly do some community service.
I don’t know Gap Runner, I don’t think your story is anything like this. You’re talking about kids playing, all normal. These guys forced their genitals on someone’s face who was smaller and weaker than them. And 14 is old enough to know better. I think registration for life is over the top but I don’t think there is any denying it was a sex offence.
That registry is a joke. And grossly abused. The impact on the so-called “offenders” and their families can’t even begin to be imagined. I know there are genuine offenders out there. But the lists are also full of people who are, as you say, guilty of no more that youthful (albeit distasteful) horseplay. There are also many, many on there who were falsely accused and convicted after a disgruntled ex-sweetheart or spouse used a child, “programmed” or bribed a child, to make false accusations. Those people are condemned for life. I have an acquaintance, falsely accused nearly 30 years ago. Because he was idealistic and naive at the time, he followed the advice of an incompetent attorney, believing justice will prevail in the end and the truth would come out. Now, 30 years later, he’s a family man who has never known the joy of seeing his children’s school performances, or taking them to a park to play, or even meeting their teachers. He has become a hermit, totally isolating himself from neighbors, community and social functions. He dutifully re-registers and follows the rules dictated by being on this list. Our legislators and court officers need to start using a little common sense when it comes to handing out life sentences on these lists. Their original purpose has been lost in the overzealous efforts to protect children. And, by the way, just because a person is on that list, that doesn’t mean they are a pedophile. Many, many of the persons listed have never touched a child – they are on there because of offenses against an adult. Not a child.
Yes, I agree that the offender lists needs to be only people who are really dangerous not just creepy. I do think that what some of you are saying as punishment is not strict enough. Community service and counseling my ass. They need to be expelled from school if this happened at school. They need to be sent to juvenile for maybe a couple months. Then community service and counseling. We need to take a stronger stance on bullying as a society. As someone who was bullied, I have ZERO tolerance for that crap.
So I don’t think they really belong on the registry list but the idea of them suffering for the rest of their lives does make me smile. Bullys deserve to suffer
I too belive the law needs some tweeking. I have 3 boys two are teenagers and sometimes I catch them and their friends doing or saying tipical boy stuff. All you need is one of the bunch to pull a prank and the rest try to top it it is called being a boy!! But to be on sexual peditors list for life for a prank is a bit much the are 14 not 40 there is a huge differance.
I agree that the definition of “sex offender” for purposes of warning the public of dangerous people should not include idiotic adolescent pranks.
However, I am sure it’s hard to draw the line in some cases.
To me, the prank you described is worse than, for example, a guy grabbing a girl’s crotch or breast. It isn’t that much milder than forcing someone into oral sex. It’s a lot worse than simply exposing one’s genitals to another person who doesn’t want to see them. At some point, grabbing someone’s crotch or breast makes him a sex offender, as does exposing oneself in public, and forcing oral sex most certainly does. (For the record, I was grabbed and flashed by classmates, etc. aged 9-14, and never considered that a criminal matter, though it would be if the perp were older.) Where do we draw the line?
Are we thinking there should be an age limit? Was it David who said that when I was a child, I did asshole things like a child, but now I’m a man and I’m a completely different person? What is the cutoff, or are we going to be subjective about that?
Here are some ideas that pop into my head.
1) If the incident was handled in juvenile court, it doesn’t get on the public sex offender register.
2) For nonviolent acts and those not involving an adult messing with a minor, the name drops off after X years if the perp does not reoffend.
3) Consensual sex with a minor over age X does not get listed.
Maybe it was Paul who said that… getting old…
the sad truth is that if they beat up the kids and actually hurt them then they would be tried as children and when they turned 18 the record would be expunged. Bur since it was termed sexual then it will follow them the rest of their lives..lesson to be learned kids violence is ok as long as you keep your pants on
What I’m curious to find out is are there any statistics on people who end up on the list for some of these lesser reasons then being MORE likely to turn into actual predators? I mean, the idea that you have criminalized a specific act and then turned someone into a criminal for having committed it. Does that make them any more likely to engage in actual criminal behavior? For someone who now has trouble getting a job, has trouble purchasing/renting a place to live, has trouble being able to go about his daily life because of the areas to which he is limited. It seems logical to me that he would now be MORE likely to turn to some sort of criminal activity as a way of life, simply for lack of other options. I don’t know if there is a flaw in my logic here, but I’m curious is anyone else has any thoughts on the matter?.
I hope my weigh in is not just mirroring the other 45 or so posts at this point. The Registry and the designation of sexual offender was originally intended to help monitor people who are either violent offender (using force, threats for sexual acts) or those who present with a pattern. The point here really is not just about the boys and the situation because that will always be mired in some kind of opinion mostly from your experience. The essential point is about the laws and how they are crossing a lot of lines into areas they were not designed to handle. Police departments are already overwhelmed with more severe issues, and if this continues through as a measure, we first and foremost have two people’s (and more) lives who are ruined. I work with teens and children who have sexually problematic behaviors. Some have trouble getting their life back on track due to a lack of inclusion and opportunities. Secondly, think of simply the resource waste monitoring these two people where that resource could go to someone who truly needs the help. These young men are not sexually offenders, period.
I think those boys deserve to be punished and punished harshly. And there should be a probation period as well, where if they reoffend (in the same or related way), it increases the penalties.
But I don’t think they belong on the sex offenders registry. As others have said, that registry should contain people that pose a probable threat of reoffending, not everyone who ever did anything that was, yes, a sex crime.
And I do think sitting on the younger kids’ faces was a sex crime, but I’m not sure these boys understood that and I’m not sure they’d ever do it again. Putting them on the registry, while more understandable than doing so for peeing in public, is still overkill – and it’s harmful to the people the registry’s intended to protect, by diluting its meaning. Well, it would be harmful, if it weren’t already so diluted as to be meaningless anyway.
But no, they shouldn’t go unpunished. If my child were either the victim OR the perpetrator, I’d expect consequences, and serious ones. Just not this serious, or this useless. Time in juvie? Sure. Mandatory counseling? Heck, if my kid were the perpetrator it’d be mandatory by me no matter what the court said! Community service? Yes. (In addition to time in juvie or other punishments, not in place of.) Probation where if you do something similarly stupid again the punishments go up? Fine.
But the sex offender registration will a) follow them long after they have hopefully outgrown the stupidity and internalized that they shouldn’t have done it; b) scare and worry innocent neighbors about men who, 10-15 years from now, probably won’t be any risk; c) probably teach them less now than the other potential consequences, because I doubt your average 14-year-old understands just how badly being stigmatized that way will affect them later.
@ Rachel Hill – I haven’t done a study or anything but we don’t get a large amount of people on the sex registry arrested for other crimes. The one exception being failure to register as a sex offender, a crime that only they can commit.
What you do see are large amounts of homeless sex offenders. They can’t find jobs. They can’t find places where they can live. My town has a “tent city” occupied by people on the registry.
These kids may be bullies but are not sex offenders (I don’t know if they are actually bullies or if the other kids where buddies of theirs). Bullies should be punished as bullies and not sex offenders. Boys think things like that are funny. They also think farting, pooping, peeing, burping are funny, many well into adulthood. I don’t understand it but I’ve never been a teenage boy.
Since they put their butts in the other kids’ faces and not penises, I’m guessing this was not sexual at all. It was all about the smell. Boys that age like to put stinky armpits in people’s noses too. Again, I don’t get the humor but I have co-workers in their 30s who still joke about stinky bodily functions (admittedly we deal with a lot of stinky people).
I also would like to add to Rachel’s question about the impact of non-offenders being treated in programs with offenders. There is a lot of data to support that there are some differences between the needs of say these two gentlemen for counseling and persons with true sexual offending behavior. In my work with juveniles and children, I have worked with many young men who learned more behaviors than they came in with. This is not to say that it causes the behavior, but sometimes treatment and the image you project to someone, especially to a young person often acts as a defining label. Hearing continuously how you are sick and won;t be able to be helped does diminish your ability to see your chance for accepting and benefiting from help. I know there are not hard statistics on the subject, but registries that utilize default sanctions impair some. For example, say a person gets on a registry for public urination. Granted kind of gross, but something I think a lot of people (I reflect sadly on my collegiate days) have committed, even if on the side of a highway. Now that person now is restricted from jobs, residence, possibly disconnected from their own families. This is turn adds stressors and limited options for opportunities to engage in life, which has been statistically shown to contribute to criminal ideology and behaviors. You can argue the morality all you want, but simply put, if society casts you aside, it is much easier to make the decision to harm that society which has cast you out.
Systems are engaging in short term, “see we’re doing something” solutions without consideration of the ramifications long term. Not only on the individual, but on society. Laws are easy to create, but nearly impossible to remove. For some more situations that test the limit of the registry visit this link:
http://www.solresearch.org/~SOLR/rprt/LookNow.asp
While I don’t agree with them being on such a registry, some of the comments here are disturbing. People passing off acts of non-consensual sadism and a disrespect for others’ bodily autonomy as “Boys will be boys” normalizes rape and only increases the odds that a boy who gets his start doing something like this sees nothing wrong a few years later with sexually harassing a co-worker or violating someone who’s intoxicated at a party.
“Megan’s Law”, like versions of the proposed “Caylee’s Law”, was drafted by the public and passed in the heat of anger and sorrow for the loss of a child’s life. Most “sex offenders” classified under the laws are not the types of criminals originally targeted–predators of children; and it’s debatable whether the sex offender registries have prevented any crimes against children or not. Certainly most children are harmed by people they know–as in this case, or by relatives, and not by strangers, with or without criminal records. In some places, there are virtual “ghettos” of sex offenders, where there is only a small area of town acceptable for them to live, and many of them live together in motels or houses; this is not an healthy situation for those who want to live without reoffending–and depending on the offender, this is much more likely than these laws allow for.
[i]Mollie: Back when I was a kid, even downright sociopathic behaviour from kids younger than 15, unless it involved a knife or a gun, was pretty much dispelled as “bullying,†and the rest of us kids had to suck it up and deal with it. I didn’t appreciate this laissez-faire attitude by adults at the time, since I was a “victim,†and I wanted a sense of responsibility and fairness[/i]
Why is “suck it up and deal with it” the only alternative. What about self-defense (unless that’s what “deal with it” means, as it logically ought to but rarely does these days. Or those days).
Over 90% of new sex crimes are committed by people NOT on any list, and are family members or aquaintences.
So to all those who feel the list is good for something -it is. It’s good for your own self titillation and having your pockets picked.
The registry has not been shown to prevent one single crime, the crimes stats have not been altered one iota by registries – and the worst part is WE ALL ALREADY KNOW THIS.
Every last one of us.
Face it. We LOVE the registry. Not because it is helpful or a deterrent in any way – but because we just love to hate.
For decades now, people have been murdered, beaten, shunned, banned, assaulted, humiliated and forced to live under bridges.
To the tune of billions of dollars of our children’s futures – down a rathole of depravity.
We’ve all been taught the folly of the Salem Witch hunts, the lynchings of “negroes”, the McCarthy era, the Japanese internment camps, the AIDs scare…much of Hitler’s atrocities were inspired by America’s treatment of it’s natives.
We know better.
Each and everyone of us knows better.
..but we’re addicted to it. Like taking McDonald’s french fries from an obese baby’s mouth – we aren’t gonna give it up, not even for our own good.
There should be a Casino in Las Vegas named The Sex Offender Registry with Slot machines picturing the “listed” while we sit for hours endlessly feeding money into the abyss while “saving children”. Our collective pre occupation with sex offenders is just as sick and addictive as any other societal ill.
We might as enjoy gambling our children’s futures away openly, instead of furtively sneaking and spying on our neighbors as we now do.
@SgtMom: Very well said.
What these two kids need is an old fashioned beat down for being bullies. Sex offense registry? Absolutely ridiculous in this case.
I’ve been reading a lot of stories recently of young men whose children were given away for adoption without their permission. The girlfriend gets pregnant, gives the child up (often travelling to Utah to do it because the laws there favor her over the father) and the father is left trying fruitlessly to get custody of his child. In many of those stories, any past criminal record – speeding tickets, drug charges – are sited as reasons why the father should not be able to raise his child, no matter how long ago the crime was.
So as I read this story, I think about these guys, and think, I wonder how this record affects them if they become fathers. Neither would be able to coach his son’s football team, I’d assume. How would a record like this play in a custody battle over a divorce? Or, heaven forbid, an attempt to prevent a child from being given up for adoption?
Sorry for only reading the first 10 or so comments…
I agree this is not the best example.
I fully agree with the author’s premise that these sex offender registries are out of control, but a better example would be a 14 year old boy caught peeing on the side of a building during the day, especially if a playground is in the far distance but technically still ‘in sight’. Such a scenario could also result in a teenager having to register as a sex offender for life.
Thank you SgtMom. I just read through over 50 comments, and you’re the only voice of sanity here.
Offender registries are just a way to extend punishment of offenders beyond what would ordinarily be allowed constitutionally. Maybe not quite as bad as the “we let you out of prison and put you in a mental institution” trick, but in the same spirit.
As you say, there’s no evidence registries help prevent any crimes. In fact, compared to other crimes like burglary and murder, recidivism is lower for sexual criminals. Why don’t we have registries for those? I know that if you asked me which criminals live near me that I’m most interested in knowing about, sex offenders are lower on the list than murderers and burglars.
I’m as abhorred by sex offenders as much as the next person. They’re despicable. But so are anyone who refuse to comply with societal rules and impose their own harmful will on others. What abhors me just as much is lack of justice, both in terms of not treating all criminals equally, as well as in terms of wasting public money on ineffective process.
There are lots of opportunities for reform along those lines (especially the second). But sex offender registries are certainly one of the most obvious (the other one being the TSA).
It has been my experience that any law named after a past victim and passed in a flurry of emotionalism as was “Megan’s Law” is bound to be flawed and often creates new problems without solving the original one it was intended to rectify. This case is a good example.Another is a Jersey law named for a girl who was killed when a car full of kids crashed that now forbids teen drivers from having other kids in the car, and mandates a sticker saying they are teens so cops can stop them. So far this law has prevented no accidents and has been a source of harassment of young people.
The boy who sat on the other kids should be soundly punished for what they did, but not forever.This law does not work, It does not really protect children, and it is too broad in application of who constitutes a danger of future sexual assault,
Americans never cease to amaze me…
Take a bunch of guys, have them strip, do (stupid and distasteful) stunts and let them try humiliating eachother ‘for fun’, film that and hey! You’ve got a stupid but popular tv program called ‘Jackass’ which a lot of 12 and 14 yo boys watch and laugh about.
Take those 12 and 14 yo boys, have them jerk and stunt around in the same (admittedly stupid and distasteful) way and hey! A judge gets very serious and puts them on the sex-offender list for life!
Dolly said, “If it was girls faces, yes that is sexual and disgusting…”
Wow, my Hypocrisy Meter just went off the scale. Apparently girls are more valuable than boys and must be put in a special protected class.
LOL, excellent point Marion!
Yet another example of letting the law do the thinking for you. This list means that these kids – or the ones urinating in public, etc – have perpetrated a crime that is the equivalent gang rape or rape and murder.
Does anyone here think that the crime here is the equivalent of actual rape?
In the same way that our judicial system gives people a pass (probation with minimal to no check-ins) until some arbitrary and ever-shifting line is crossed when the hammer comes down and its life without parole, there is little or no opportunity to actually reform people on this list who can learn from their mistakes and be a contributing member to society. And for those who don’t get on the list through luck or good lawyering, they have no reason to reform themselves either – after all, they aren’t on the list.
“Boys will be boys” does not normalize rape. Treating non-rape and rape as an equivalent crime normalizes rape. How bad can rape be if its no different that a stupid 14 year old kid mooning someone? (Answer – very bad – its not equivalent, that’s my point) So long as the two dissimilar crimes are conflated this very law normalizes rape.
Not only are these boys stigmatized for life but what kind of future do they have. They likely can’t attend school (people on the registry can’t go within a certain distance of schools) so they’ll either have to home school or get a GED or drop out. Unless the parents are dedicated to home schooling, their education suffers. Even if they complete their education, the odds of them getting into college while on the sex registry is minimal. Employment is likely only in low income jobs.
So now we’ve taken two potentially productive members of society and made them low contributors for a stupid prank that, like Marion said, they probably learned on tv. Not only do they suffer but all of society suffers.
“People passing off acts of non-consensual sadism and a disrespect for others’ bodily autonomy as “Boys will be boys†normalizes rape and only increases the odds that a boy who gets his start doing something like this sees nothing wrong a few years later with sexually harassing a co-worker or violating someone who’s intoxicated at a party.”
Give me a break!! This is one kid putting his butt in some other kid’s face. Taking it down some non-slippery slope to rape, is just ridiculous. And where did it say that this was non-consensual? I assume that it was non-consensual on some level since nobody really wants a butt in their face, but it is equally possible that these were all buddies and they were simply messing around and a parent saw and pitched a fit.
Taking stupid actions such as this and sexualizing them, without knowing any sexual connotations were intended, is normalizing rape. It is saying the stupid pranks that you committed at 14 are equal to forcible rape.
Again, why are so many jumping to the conclusion that this was about sex? Everything involving butts and nakedness is not sexual. If it were, spanking your child would be sexual abuse (I realize some think that it is but society does not). Teenage boys are notoriously fascinated with butts, farts, and stink in general. It’s more likely than not that that is all this was about.
Thank you Donna, I just wanted to say something similar but less well phrased 🙂
My pedophile committed his first offense when he was 14, when he fondled his 7-year-old niece. His parents found out, stopped it, but wrote it off as juvenile stupidity. His second known offense was the rape of his wife’s neice when he was in his 30’s and she was 15. She had been previously traumatised and did not report it to anyone at the time. His third offense was with his own child, starting gradually but becoming in earnest when she was age 9 and continuing over 7 years.
People who commit acts like those commited by these teen boys lack empathy AND lack impulse control. Some urge, sexual or agressive, goads them on. Neither empathy nor self-control stops them. Society finds sex offenders so disgusting that it does not fund research on how to prevent or cure them, if there is a way. We have no idea what would make these boys better human beings. I notice that none of these postings come from someone saying “When I was 14, I did my best to get laughs from my friends by bullying and harrassing and sexually humiliating younger kids, but now I’ve grown up to be a sweet, empathetic man who is deeply ashamed of my previous behavior.”
So we are left with an old adage from petty larceny: “You can’t control the motive, so you have to limit the opportunity.” These boys SHOULD be kept out of coaching and camp assisting and teaching Sunday School, until someone can show me that there is a cure for their mental illness.
Oh come on, Mike!!
Twelve and fourteen year old boys will issue dares, streak, put their butts to the other’s faces, and light their farts together, having a great time, laughing their heads off, as ‘male bonding’. As buddies.
Call me sexist, but boys tend to have a more scathalogical sense of humor at that age. Girls tend to have other ways of ‘girl-bonding’.
But even if girls would habitually group together as friends to bond over pulling pranks on eachother, putting their butts in each other’s faces and lighting their farts, I don’t think they would do so in a mixed group.
It’s called ‘male bonding’ for a reason.
Girls might giggle together over the weirdness of their bodies, and boys might find waving their dangly bits at eachother hilarious, but either group would be mightily embarrassed if the other group witnessed their antics. let alone participate in them.
I know lots of boys who would find getting or giving a ‘butt-face’ from or to their buddies hi-la-ri-ous, but I would find it very strange, even suspect, if a 12 yo girl would willingly strip and sit on a boys’ face or would gleefully have a boy sit naked on her face, or indeed, if a 12 you boy would willingly strip and sit on a girl’s face or have a naked girl sit on his face. The boys goofing off together is their idea of fun, but boys sitting naked on girls faces are never and have never been anyone’s idea of harmless fun.
Oh, and Angie, I’m sorry you had a traumatising experience, but please don’t project this rare phenomenon onto the entire male species.
Your pedophile started young, you say. Well, I’m not surprised. But pedophiles like this are *rare*. Boys stunting around, mooning the neighbours, waving their willies and making fart jokes are not. In fact, as I said above, there is even a tv programme dedicated to this typically juvinile male idea of fun.
So, you’ve got a pedophile, and you look at his past and you say, “Look everybody! He did this as a kid, and this as a young adult. We could’ve, should’ve, guessed what he was when he did these things as a kid. So lets take all the kids who do similar things and punish them because surely they will grow up to be pedos!” But this is alarmist and false.
Goofing around a la ‘Jackass’ is NORMAL teenage behaviour. To zero in on normal boyish behaviour and trying to make it into something sexual, dangerous but extremely rare is exactly what FreeRangeKids is fighting against.
Not every male who looks at your kid is trying to ‘groom’ it. Not every fall of a bike will result in braindamage. Not every boy who wet-willies his buddies (and gets ‘butt-faced’ in return) will grow up to be a pedophile.
I’m not afraid of fart and butt humor, having married into a family where it is practically considered a sure sighn of legitimacy if the baby farts early and often. I grew up with two horseplaying brothers, and have a son who think fart humor is the greatest accomplishment of civilized man.
I’m not sure those boys will grow up to be pedophiles, only that they lack the empathy and self-control to be safe guardians of children. Pedophilia is not the only mental health problem that should disqualify people from being in power over children. The Judge determined that the purpose of this behavior was to humiliate the younger children. If it had been mutual jackassing, it would not have gone to court. If you think publically humiliating younger children by completely overstepping their personal boundaries through force is normal behavior for teens, you have a sad view of the world.
Angie, on July 24, 2011 at 01:59 said:
“My pedophile committed his first offense when he was 14”
MY pedophile? MY pedophile?
My dog. My song. My shoes.
MY pedophile?!?!
What, do you keep this “thing” on a leash?
wow…
Marion said, “Call me sexist”
Okay, you’re sexist.
Yes, boys are different than girls, hooray for that. Does that mean that they should face different penalties under the law? Because that’s where your reasoning leads, like it or not.
In my opinion this whole “sex offender” list is utter nonsense for so-called crimes like this, or “sexting”, or pissing on a wall (all things that can get you put on the list).
But to say that the law should apply differently because of the genders involved…well, that’s just crap no matter how you try to justify it. This is the same kind of reasoning that leads to the “She wouldn’t have been raped if she hadn’t been wearing those revealing clothes…” argument.
Marion said, “but I would find it very strange…”
Sorry, but what *you* find “strange” shouldn’t be the basis for law, punishment, or used to justify different treatment for different genders. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. If it’s not, it’s not. Stop trying to claim protected status because of your internal organs, okay?
Other than that, I agree with most of what you say.
Angie, YOUR pedophile ( whatever that means) committed a sexual act with carnal intentions. A person does not fondle a 7-year-old’s genitals unless they’re deriving some sexual satisfaction from it. But it should be obvious that what these boys did was immature horseplay without any intent to stimulate themselves sexually; therefore, they should NOT be labeled as sex offenders. They even did it in front of their friends! Should they be punished for it? Definitely. But in American society, the punishment has always been in direct proportion to the crime; however, putting these two 14-year-old boys on a lifetime sex offender registry is waaay out whack and a hardcore human rights violation! In our nation’s zeal to protect children, we have lost all common sense.
I agree the sex offender registry is very wrong in this case, I agree that it was probably not sexual in intent, but I think it should be taken more seriously than “boys being stupid jerks.” Maybe not a LOT more seriously, but at least somewhat. “They’ll grow out of it” is only true because we punish behaviors like this and send the message that it’s not appropriate. If we just laugh it off, or treat it as just disgusting but not all THAT bad, how do they get that message?
There’s a middle ground here. It’s not just “horseplay” if half the people involved were younger and weaker and subjected to something they would not voluntarily put up with, ever. “Horseplay” is kids dunking each other in the pool, when everyone involved is more or less willing to get dunked. This sounds a lot more like bullying, which, while it should not be equated with sexual offenses, particularly those that entail a lifetime stigma, should also be taken with some seriousness.
I haven’t commented on this site in a while. It’s now time.
I most certainly agree with the majority of the posters here (certain NOT Angie). Branding these 14 year-olds as sex offenders is just ridiculous. I can certainly say I am NOWHERE NEAR the same as I was when I was 14. Heck, I remember even at age 17 someone in class telling me they were “getting laid” this weekend & I thought they meant drinking, I had no idea it meant “going all the way.”(Granted, one can lead to the other.) I remember at age 15 observing a classmate who, upon seeing cheerleaders at a pep rally, started chanting “hey, take it off!” He’s now a deacon at a church.
Should there be some punishment? Of course. But having them show up as dots on a sex offender map–for life!–makes said map absolutely worthless. Everytime some nutty parent jerks that map out & shows it to people, saying, “see how dangerous the neighborhood is,” the whole thing is just a joke.
Sorry I’ve been absent awhile, Lenore, I needed the break & so did my grammar usage, frankly. I’m good now.
LRH
To people jumping on Angie, I think it’s pretty clear that when she says “my pedophile” she means “the person who molested me”. There’s really no other reasonable way of parsing that phrase, and it’s a perfectly logical and coherent way of putting it.
There’s no reason to attack her word choice.
I remember at age 15 observing a classmate who, upon seeing cheerleaders at a pep rally, started chanting “hey, take it off!†He’s now a deacon at a church.
Well, now, Anthony seems to be gone so I’ll say it for him (sigh, sigh), being a deacon at the church doesn’t prove or disprove anything. Wish it did.
However, that all aside, I agree that it’s ludicrous in nearly all cases to continue to judge people as grown-ups on the stupid things they did at 14. (For that matter, it’s a bit silly to judge them as old men and women for the things they did when they were young men and women. People change as they grow older, often for the better.)
The registry was intended for perhaps 10,000 of the “most dangerous.” It now has almost 800,000 and growing exponentially. That is the equivalent to 80 sold out packed Rose Bowls. think about that. And add to the carnage the affected family members (and their bullied children) and it is in the millions. Politicos got a hold of an easy vote stratagem, the media got wind of easy ratings, and we have what we have. The state of California estimates the costs to be over 60 million dollars, the state of Texas estimates over 38 million. That’s why only a handful of states have hopped on board. All empirical data has shown the registry to be nothing more than a very expensive dog and pony show – and its effectiveness questioned by not only human rights activists but many in AG’s offices, law enforcement as well as state sponsored sex-offender management boards.
There have been documented child http://www.freep.com/article/201107…and adult suicides, vigilante murders, forced homelessness of entire families, and horrible examples of the kind of bullying that only those children of the registry have to endure (without public and media outrage)…they simply don’t matter. Associated with perversion of the highest order.
But do also chew on this: do there exist many baby boomers that have not done something in the past that would land them on this registry? Be honest, folks. Think 50’s and 60’s and 70’s. The parents and grandparents who had the adorable photos of their offspring naked in the family albums that are now considered child porn (bet there are millions out there that wouldn’t pass the muster, should the authorities REALLY go retro and start digging). The necking in the back of the Buick, the copping the first feel, the high school seniors dating the freshman and sophomores etc. Are the parents and grandparents where the man of over 18 married a 15 or 16 yr old bride considered sex offenders simply because we moved the moral and legal goal posts? Cant have it both ways, folks.
This example Lenore cites is but one of so many disturbing twists to these laws that are occurring every day. Relief and sanity come slow due to the hysteria and belief structure that has been branded on the public consciousness. After all, the term “sex-offender” means only one thing…right? Politicos cannot broach the R-Word (reform) for fear that such a radio-active subject would end their careers. Same with the jurists ranging from state level all the way to the Supreme Court (who stated in 2003 that the registry was NOT punishment, thereby skirting the constitutional issue and setting the stage for insidious political growth)
Yes, we have amputated the lives and spirits of millions and deprived same of their human and constitutional rights. Just place a child’s name in front of a law and see how many nay votes you get. Yes, there are some really bad people that law enforcement should monitor…I said law enforcement. No one will ever argue. But public registries just pour kerosene on a fire. Let the police do their jobs.
Final thought: maybe we should place a child’s name out front on the national budget bill. We’d have this whole financial mess cleared up in no time. After all…who would dare stand opposed?
And a final final thought: The tragedy in Norway is sobering. Sad. But I bet the folks didn’t know where the perpetrator lived; we in the US didn’t know where Timothy McVeigh lived; but we would most certainly will know where the kid who sat on someone’s face calls home.
Uly, I think you’re right, Angie probably means the person who harmed her or someone very close to her, but doesn’t want to be explicit about it.
Fondling a 7 year old’s genitals and farting in a 12 year old’s face are actually 2 different crimes. One is not likely to lead to the other. We don’t know if this crime had a sexual nature or not. Butts and naked does not automatically make it sexual, particularly when dealing with children.
Nobody said these boys should get no punishment. IF, and only if, this was a bullying activity should this be prosecuted. If the kids are all buddies, this should be handled by the parents. No way should the punishment entail lifetime registry.
@ Pentamom – yes, these boys need a penalty. That penalty need not be criminal prosecution, particularly if these are all friends and this was not a bullying situation.
@ Mike
You’re not sexist! Whoopdedoo! You’re right, political correctness is so much more important than keeping boys who do harmless boyish things together from the sex-offender list! Let’s tar boys who moon eachother, put their butt in eachother’s face and fart at eachother with the same brush as boys who sexually assault other boys, just because boys have the right to be victems too!
(as anybody here ever said the opposite!)
@ Angie,
“The Judge determined that the purpose of this behavior was to humiliate the younger children. If it had been mutual jackassing, it would not have gone to court.”
Is it? Could’ve been meant in good fun, but escalated when a parent or teacher intervened (apparantly these 12 yo were ‘schoolmates’, and with schools being so terryfied of anything that might get them sued, I’m no longer amazed when things are blown way out of proportion).
I’m sorry, I’m not convinced that ‘if it had been mutual jackassing, it would not have gone to court’. Not after reading so many cases on FreeRangeKids about 17 yo going before the judge and getting on the sex offender list because he had mutually consenting sex with his 15 yo girlfriend whose parents went beserk, or about the 16 yo kid who had a job strapping kids in a carnival ride and the kid who he strapped in had told her mom, quite innocently, that in order to strap her in he had ‘touched her heinie’.
But okay, lets say these two 14 yo were trying to humiliate a couple of younger kids because they, and their friends, thought that the humiliation of the weak would be the biggest laugh they had all week. If this was so then yep, that might be considered bullying AT THE WORST. NOT sexual attack. NOT attempted rape. NOT sexual gratification. *BULLYING*.
Now I hate bullies. HATE them. But since when do you punish bullies by putting them on the *sex-offenders list* for *life*?!!
Actually, Angie, things between buddies often end up in court. The largest group of people on the sex registry are there for consensual sex that someone other than the participants had a problem with aka stat rape. It is very possible that either someone else saw the incident and reported it or one of the younger kids went home and told his patents who didn’t think it was funny and called the police.
LRH said, “being a deacon at the church doesn’t prove or disprove anything. ”
Well, it proves he’s willing to believe in an invisible telepathic super-being who supposedly created the entire universe in a few days.
I’d say that certainly proves something about him, and not anything good in my opinion.
Marion said: “You’re not sexist!”
Well, I try not to be, seeing as how it’s pointless behavior.
You also said, “You’re right, political correctness is so much more important than keeping boys who do harmless boyish things together from the sex-offender list!”
Nope, that’s *not* what I think. In fact I think quite the opposite, as I made pretty clear when I said this:
————————————–
“In my opinion this whole “sex offender†list is utter nonsense for so-called crimes like this, or “sextingâ€, or pissing on a wall (all things that can get you put on the list).”
————————————–
How you get from what I said to what you said is, frankly, beyond me. But no need to let any rationality get in the way of your rant.
@Angie, your “pedophile?” That has to be the dumbest single remark I have heard in a very long time. That term needs to return to its original use, we need only look at your stupid comment to see why.
You’re forgetting the victim. Sitting naked on someone’s face against their will, particularly a child’s, is a disgusting, humiliating and horrendous act – one the victims will be affected by for the rest of their lives. I’m not sure how it qualified as a LIFETIME registry since even infant rapists only usually qualify for that extreme.
I think the sentence is just – they should register as sex offenders, but only for 4-to-6-to-10 years as most less than egregious offenders do. I’m with the others. That may appear to be “no big deal” to someone reading about it, but for those affected by it, it’s a win. Someone listened to them and stood up for them. What is a jerk to one person is an eternal terror to others. The judge sent a message.
As a sexual abuse survivor and the sister of a male sexual abuse survivor I’m glad to see they didn’t get off with a slap on the wrist. Life as an offender? Maybe they can appeal again (I know they can) in 10 years if they don’t do any other crappy pranks. Choices have consequences. I’m sure they never considered their victim’s feelings.
Chances are their victims weren’t first or only time victims either. What if one or both victims committed suicide or thought about it because of this prank?
Someone should alert them to the fact that going to jail for more crap will land them in a cell where lots of men will sit naked on their face and most likely enjoy gang raping them on a daily basis. The prison doesn’t see that as a prank. They see that as a fact of life behind bars.
They have a chance to turn things around, to speak out to schools and youth groups about their stupid prank and to spend the next five years building up a case for a judge to see they’re truly sorry and willing to change. They will also be alerting the media to their cause and be more likely to have the charges expunged – but only if they can show they “got” the message that what they did was wrong.
I just wanted to add, to the people who said that these boys should be on a sex offender list for a shorter period of time than life, that this may not be an option in the State in which they committed the offenses. There is no evidence whatsoever that any registries of this type have had any effect on prevention or investigation of sex crimes. The ability of child, elder, or other vulnerable persons-centered programs to do background checks quickly and easily on employees and volunteers, and the increasing use in Churches and voluntary organizations of “best practices” to protect volunteers, those they care for, and increased public knowledge and debunking myths about abuse have been effective in America, and abroad where only law enforcement have national criminal computer databases.
These lists are not to PREVENT additional crimes, but to alert INNOCENT parents and others of a threat in their area. It’s a FACT that pedophiles CAN NOT be rehabilitated. As always, no system is perfect.
Again, was this a one-time lapse of judgment or a cruel and on-going symptom of bullying? Childhood bullies become adult bullies and ruin lives. I still have no problem with bullies getting slammed out of the park like this. It takes a lot to make a bully wake-up. If it was just a one time thing then they should be hiring PR firms, organizing talks, going to schools and telling other teens what they did and that it was wrong.
They should be finding ways to alert others to the issue, to redeem themselves and to show that they are not perverts and bullies. IF they are perverts and bullies and potential child molesters (it WAS an overt sexual act) then they’ll think that suggestion is BS. Where are the parents of these children? Don’t they know that THEIR reputation is getting dragged through the mud as well? This is a critical time for all concerned. Show some remorse. If they don’t…then it won’t be long before they are in court again for acting out, anger management or worse offenses. It’s possible to turn this around, but not if they sit around on their butts whining and crying and saying “It was just a joke.”
Those are the words of a person who won’t accept responsibility for, or consequences of, their actions. 16-years old? They need to grow the F up.
These lists are not to PREVENT additional crimes, but to alert INNOCENT parents and others of a threat in their area.
…and isn’t the point of alerting them to prevent new crimes?
It’s a FACT that pedophiles CAN NOT be rehabilitated.
IS that a fact? Because I’ve been looking into it recently (off and on over the past two years) and I haven’t seen that there’s been much research done in this area… like, at all. And what there is is a lot less… compelling than THIS IS A FACT. But I haven’t been looking very deeply either.
I do know that when people say things like “This is a FACT” or “Everybody knows”, I start to get suspicious that maybe this is a made-up non-fact that people pass around so much that they just kinda assume it’s true, without checking it out. That’s why I started trying to find the actual recidivism rate, with limited success. I still have no idea what that rate is, if only because different studies use widely varying methodologies and definitions.
IF they are perverts and bullies and potential child molesters (it WAS an overt sexual act) then they’ll think that suggestion is BS.
I agree, it was sexual in nature, no matter their motive. However, I’m not convinced that sexual assault committed upon somebody two years younger than you (6/7th of your own age) indicates that you are likely to be a pedophile when grown. (Among other things, those attracted to pre-teens and teens aren’t technically called pedophiles, but that’s actually beside the point here.) It could well be a warning sign for other types of violence and sexual assault in the future, but pedophilia? I’m not convinced.
Becky Blanton said: “Sitting naked on someone’s face against their will, particularly a child’s, is a disgusting, humiliating and horrendous act – one the victims will be affected by for the rest of their lives.”
You don’t know that.
It might affect YOU that way, but I expect that the majority of people this has happened to wouldn’t “be affected by for the rest of their lives.”
I mean, seriously. Get a grip. If this sort of thing affects you FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, you’re far too fragile to be allowed outside.
Mike What are you, Anthony Hernandez come back from the dead or something?
This was not a theological discussion I was making. Rather, this: a deacon of a church, unless they’re a corrupt one, does so with a whole different way of thinking than a person who would see a pretty cheerleader and yell out “hey, take it off.” That is a huge change, and is way different than the way I knew him 20-odd years ago in high school, thus making my point that how someone is at age 14-15 etc is not indicative of how they will be later in life.
That’s the point, please–anything more than that, quit twisting it. We don’t need another Anthony Hernandez-type here.
LRH
Becky Blanton says “It’s a FACT that pedophiles CAN NOT be rehabilitated.”
Actually most sex offenders are unlikely to reoffend. Marshall and Barbaree’s 1990 study of literature found that child molesters with female victims reoffended at between 10 to 29%, depending on the study.
There isn’t enough research to prove if treatment makes a difference, but one study by Hall 1995 showed a reduction in arrest rate from 17% to 7%.
So it’s actually a myth that pedophiles can not be rehabilitated.
Becky, if not to prevent crimes from happening, what is the point of the “innocent” public knowing someone’s history of conviction as a sex offender? Prurient curiosity? Knowing whom to chase through the streets with torches? Even criminals who have served their sentences have a right to privacy unless there is an overriding benefit to the community for violating it. Judges can always order that for pedophiles. At least, we have a right to privacy in Canada. Perhaps there is an overriding right to self-righteousness in the US.
I have to disagree on this one. Typically, sexual assualt/rape is about asserting control — not necessarily about sex. I think what these boys did was very disturbing. Were they doing it for sexual pleasure? No. But they absolutely knew that the girls would not find it funny or cute. I don’t think it can be considered “horseplay” when 2 of the 4 participants weren’t in on the “play” part of this.
I would be deeply concerned about my son if he did this. I would be deeply concerned for my daughter is she had this done to her. I know I would have a difficult time if some guy sat on my face naked, so I don’t know why I should assume that a teenager should “shake it off.”
I certainly don’t see how “we” – strangers – can determine that these are good boys who made a bad decision. I don’t think “normal” teen boys behave in this manner, and I think it is wise to monitor them to make sure they don’t re-offend. And I do say “re-offend” because I absolutely believe that they have committed a sexual offense.
LRH said: “Mike What are you, Anthony Hernandez come back from the dead or something?”
I’m sorry, I don’t know who Anthony Hernandez is. Is he someone I should dislike based on your comments?
“how someone is at age 14-15 etc is not indicative of how they will be later in life.”
Yes, I agree, people (most people) do indeed change as they get older.
Long story very very VERY short, Anthony is somebody who is willing to use any excuse to talk about how evil religion is and how everybody religious is a child abuser simply by exposing their children to religion, like, ever. And all priests are pedophiles, right? Something along those lines.
He’s unpleasant and usually off-topic as well, and once he shows up the whole conversation is derailed entirely.
Alex said: “So it’s actually a myth that pedophiles can not be rehabilitated.”
Depends on what you mean by “rehabilitated”. The vast majority of pedophiles don’t appear to be able to change what they’re attracted to, it’s kind of “baked in” to who they are. Sometimes they can be taught or helped not to re-offend, but that’s not the same as being “rehabilitated”.
Most if not all sexual behavior is innate, not learned. We rarely choose who or what we’re attracted to, and that includes pedophilia. Trying to change a person’s sexual preferences is almost *always* ineffective, much like these clowns and charlatans who claim they can “cure” gay people (ala Marcus Bachman).
@Mike, no, I’m not too fragile to be allowed outside. And I would say that that sort of action WOULD DEFINITELY impact someone for life – to varying degrees, but not many people would forget it. My guess is you have zero boundaries or respect for people who do have boundaries and feelings and would be hurt by that. I’m sorry you’ve been hurt and have walled up the side of you that was once in touch with YOUR feelings. Society makes it hard for men to feel and that results in a denial of feelings, which results in their being unable to discuss the FACTS and to resort to a personal attack on the person that thinks/believes differently.
@Alex, the literature is overwhelming in its evidence that true pedophiles CAN NOT be rehabilitated. Those who believe they can tend to be offenders, or those who work with them, live with them or associated with them. It’s easy to find one or two studies in a thousand that take the other point of view or to manipulate the data or results or point to one part of the study – like 18-year old male offenders who had sex with a 15 year old girl tend not to reoffend…yeah, because it was a relationship not a serial offender with pedophilia.
@Arachne646, I agree. People have a right to their privacy. If they’d done their time and are back in society, it’s no one’s business – UNLESS they are sexual predators. Why? Because predators REOFFEND. People, PARTICULARLY sexual predators (and I mean men and women raping babies or where the crime is truly one of a pedophile or rapist etc) are creatures of habit. They tend to act in the same manner over time unless they actively try to change. Credit card companies look at your credit history and can predict pretty closely what your likelihood of being a “good” or “bad” credit risk is. Employers look at your work history and can tell if you’ll be a good or bad risk employment-wise – eg. are you a job hopper? Prurient curiosity? For some I’m sure. I don’t believe that Judges should override privacy for pedophiles. They are dangerous. They ruin lives. I’d like to see PEDOPHILE tattooed on their forehead, but that’s not likely to happen. I’ve seen too many people whose lives have been ruined by pedophiles. I do take comfort in the fact that those who do end up in jail get justice – not from the courts, but from their cell-mates, 60% of whom were molested as children. Karma’s a bitch.
Since most sexual predators are “nice” people, charming and innocent types and few adults are likely to know or even think about someone’s criminal history unless they look for it. That’s why churches, scout groups and employers do back ground checks – they want to know a person’s history so they can determine what their risk is for a person to work with children.
Back to the topic of this post – two teenaged bullies – like I said, too bad they got life as sexual offenders, but only time will tell if they were just bullies in the wrong place at the wrong time or not.
@Heather. Amen. If grown men were to do the same to those boys would there be an outcry against the men for their actions? Certainly. Physical dominance, assault, intimidation against another human being of any age are acts of violence. When it involves genitals in any fashion it’s sexual violence and assault no matter what the motivation. Was it control or was it also sexual in nature? Obviously the facts of the case concerned the judge enough to make the ruling he did. Very sad all around.
Sexual, private parts-call the penis and anis what you like. To put them in anyone persons at any age says you see seriously disturbed, and if you don’t know by age 14 how wrong that is than live with it-your chose it.
These kids will be driving soon. What will they pit in someone’s face next?
Even if they “learn” to make better choices for the rest of their lives it is OVER.
From age 0 to 14 they learned, they failed.
I have dealt with bullies who were only 8 and they are now 12. They have been slapped on the wrist, “forgiven” and laugh in the face of their victims to this day. They know they are permitted to abuse and it’s like a drug now.
D. The menace?! He walked on flowers and got dirty when he washed a dog. He never got his buddy to help him smear ass in a child’s face.
If I met you, as a twenty year old, and you told me your woes for having to register I would say, “What were you thinking and what the heck did your parents teach you growing up? 14? Are you an infant?”. Registered sex offender or not- if they think it’s cool to demean people with their “junk”‘in public, well, then it looks like they are now “cool” for life.
Becky Blanton said: “And I would say that that sort of action WOULD DEFINITELY impact someone for life – to varying degrees, but not many people would forget it.”
You seem to think that your personal opinion is some sort of infallible universal constant, Becky. It’s not. Lots of people (including myself) have lived through much worse things and were able to move on without claiming it was some sort of life-destroying event.
“My guess is you have zero boundaries or respect for people who do have boundaries and feelings and would be hurt by that.”
And your guess would be wrong. 🙂 But your skills at generalizing are top-notch, to say the least.
I’ve spent a good portion of my life helping people, and contrary to what you may think, not everyone is so easily scarred for life by childhood pranks and nonsense, even offensive ones.
“I’m sorry you’ve been hurt and have walled up the side of you that was once in touch with YOUR feelings.”
I’m sorry that you think you’re telepathic and are able to diagnose me without ever having met, seen, or talked to me. That’s an amazing feat to say the least. What university did you get your psychology degree from, if you don’t mind my asking?
Uly said: “Anthony is somebody who is willing to use any excuse to talk about how evil religion is and how everybody religious is a child abuser simply by exposing their children to religion, like, ever.”
I don’t believe that everybody who is religious is a child abuser.
“And all priests are pedophiles, right?”
Also not my view or opinion.
“He’s unpleasant and usually off-topic as well”
I’m not unpleasant, I’m more along the lines of an “acquired taste”. 😉 lol
“If grown men were to do the same to those boys would there be an outcry against the men for their actions?”
If a grown man sat on the face of a 12 year old? Of course. If a 30 year old man sat on the face of a 28 year old buddy as a prank? Really, an outcry? I can’t even work up a sign for that?
There seems to be ALOT of jumping to conclusions be many people in this thread so let’s be clear –
(a) No where did it say whether the 12 year olds were boys or girls. The 14 year olds are definitely boys. The 12 year olds were “schoolmates.” Last time I checked, schoolmates can usually be either boys or girls.
(b) There is no information that the 12 year olds were bully victims. Again, they are identified only as schoolmates. Could be friends. Could be bully victims. We don’t know. Nothing I read contained statements from the victims claiming to be bullied.
(c) That 12 year olds were not involved in the horseplay. Maybe they thought is was funny as hell and their parents objected. Again, nothing I read contained statements from the victim claiming that they were bothered by this. Just because you wouldn’t think it was funny doesn’t mean that others wouldn’t. I know a few who would think it both funny and disgusting.
“the literature is overwhelming in its evidence that true pedophiles CAN NOT be rehabilitated.”
Actually true pedophiles are extremely rare. Pedophile means person attracted to prepubescent children. The VAST majority of child molestation victims are pubescent, not prepubescent. Even if these boys had stuck their penis’ in the victims’ mouths (a much more serious crime), they would not qualify as a true pedophile as most 12 year olds are actually pubescent.
Even so it is rare for us to have a sex case with a previous conviction for a sex offense. Most sex offenders who come into our office are first time offenders (as far as the law is concerned). You want a group that can’t be rehabilitated, try thieves. They are the biggest repeat offenders. If I wanted to know what criminals lived around me, I’d want a thief registry. Then I’d know where to go get my great lawnmower that got stolen out of my shed (I hate my new lawnmower).
“You’re forgetting the victim. Sitting naked on someone’s face against their will, particularly a child’s, is a disgusting, humiliating and horrendous act – one the victims will be affected by for the rest of their lives.”
For YOU maybe. For these 12 year old, who knows. They may have thought it as funny as their peers. Unless you know THESE 12 year olds, you cannot say what they feel and how they are effected.
“I agree, it was sexual in nature, no matter their motive.”
How is, say, farting in someone’s face sexual in nature? Is mooning someone sexual in nature? Streaking through a baseball game? Are we wanting to go down the road that ANYTHING involving the butt of someone is sexual in nature? If so, are the spankers on the board willing to go throw themselves on the registry for committing a sex act against their child?
Ah. The trolls have finally come out. From here on out it will be impossible to have an intelligent conversation. Enjoy all. This is my last comment. I don’t do drama any more.
Becky Blanton: I do take comfort in the fact that those who do end up in jail get justice – not from the courts, but from their cell-mates, 60% of whom were molested as children. Karma’s a bitch.
If you get off on a person getting raped then you are sick in your own right.
It is ironic how so many people who are anti-rape support raping those accused of it.
By the way, you are wrong on many accounts. Lay off the Nancy Grace.
Good riddance, Becky. Its funny you are accusing people of trolling by hitting you with the facts as opposed to your weak appeal to emotion argument. Do you have a legal degree. Doubt it. Where are your stats and facts?
Obvious troll is obvious. You picked the wrong page to troll.
I guess this occurred in the US. Where else would it happen. Completely insane!
I don’t agree with the sex offender registry in the first place, and I certainly don’t agree that these boys should be on it.
And I can imagine a scenario where some boys of roughly similar size and strength were goofing around and they all thought it was funny to take off their pants and sit on each other’s faces.
However, I can also imagine have a much larger and stronger person take off his pants and, laughing, sit on my face while I was screaming and struggling to get away. It would feel like sexual assault to me, not “Dennis the Menace play.”
I don’t know what happened in this scenario. But if it’s the latter, this is a big deal, not childish horseplay.
Becky Blanton: “I do take comfort in the fact that those who do end up in jail get justice – not from the courts, but from their cell-mates, 60% of whom were molested as children.”
So you get comfort thinking about prison rape? You’re so twisted, when you die they’re going to have to screw you into the ground.
“Karma’s a bitch.”
Only if your other name is ‘Karma’.
Becky Blanton said, “like I said, too bad they got life as sexual offenders, but only time will tell if they were just bullies in the wrong place at the wrong time or not.”
Gee, Becky, try to keep your compassion in check, will ya?
No doubt if these were *your* children you’d be screaming about the injustice of it all and how unfair it was that your kids were now labeled for life for some obnoxious childhood misbehavior. But they’re not, so screw ’em, right?
The whole idea of a juvenile justice system was to take youthful offenders and, since they better deserved a chance at rehabilitation, treat them differently from adults. This philosophy is passe, according to prosecutors and politicians, who want younger and younger children charged and sentenced as adults.
http://www.campaignforyouthjustice.org/
This organization of parents and others opposed to sentencing children and teens as adults is worth a look. Of course poor youngsters and those of color are the ones that get caught up in the criminal justice system, not the ones that can afford lawyers, agree on counselling and conditional discharge, etc. Never listen to police or prosecutors who urge you to “plead out” your offending teen, even if he did it, so he can “get the help he needs”–he needs the legal representation of the lawyer he has a right to–parents say they are very sorry they looked to the juvenile “justice” system to “help” abuse their child.
“How is, say, farting in someone’s face sexual in nature?”
Because your butt shouldn’t be on somebody else’s body without their permission. That’s not saying anybody was aroused by it, or that they should be on the sex offender registry for life (I really don’t agree with treating juveniles like adults except in very limited circumstances), or that any of your slippery slope comparisons are the same situation.
“Uly said:
To people jumping on Angie, I think it’s pretty clear that when she says “my pedophile†she means “the person who molested meâ€. There’s really no other reasonable way of parsing that phrase, and it’s a perfectly logical and coherent way of putting it.
There’s no reason to attack her word choice.”
Uly – and Pentamom. FYI – a “pedophile” is a person attracted sexually to children. It’s a noun, not a verb.
…and about the creepiest choice of words I’ve come across in a long time.
As used here, it implies ownership – not actions…which is just plain creepy. Nothing “logical or reasonable” or acceptable, even in our dumbed-down educationl standards. Over the top “ick”.
Becky – Nancy Grace is not “the literature”. There is plenty of hysterical over wrought “literature” to be found out there, but not one bit of it is truthful or accurate.
Any valid source – such as the department of Justice , and studies conducted by correctional departments of various states all conclude that recidivism is extremely low – only murder is lower, which is probably why there is no murderer registry.
Those claiming “no cure” are those making a buck off such claims, or fanning the flames of hysterical ninnies to get votes and money.
Buck up, Becky. If these 12 years old boys are “ruined for life” over something like this they had no hope in life to start with.
Here we have ADULT WOMEN who have NO empathy for two 14 year old boys sentenced to a lifetime of hell…”because the boys have no empathy”. We have adult women – MOTHERS! – polishing their ” I was a victim of this and that” halos – at the expense of two juvenile boys.
“Boo-hoo! I was bullied when I was a kid!”
Are you STILL being bullied PUBLICLY, Dolly? Are your children scorned and shunned at school because some “concerned mom” found YOUR name on a public pariah list? Do your neighbors hate you for ruining their property values because you sat on someone’s face when you were 14? Do you live under a bridge because no one will hire you over your childish actions?
Here’s your chance to make a stand against bullies – and you turn out to be quite a little bully yourself.
Here was YOUR chance to show some empathy, Angie, and Becky. I guess you showed ’em alright.
I’m surprised that no one has yet pointed out that the prosecutors did not have to charge these boys with a sexual offense. They could have charged them with assault or a number of other, non-sexual, offenses.
(But that doesn’t mean that I think what these boys did was not a serious crime. The acts were not a “prank;” the boys should have done at least a few months in a juvenile jail. If someone did that to me, I wouldn’t rest until they were punished.)
This is a case of the prosecutors grandstanding and imposing the most sensational charge they can get away with. We need to find a way to remove the incentives for these loose cannon prosecutors to use the justice system for their personal political stepping stones. I don’t want my tax dollars to be used to support offenders who have been crippled by the justice system and have no way to support themselves.
Uly – and Pentamom. FYI – a “pedophile†is a person attracted sexually to children. It’s a noun, not a verb.
Yes, as seen by the facts that verbs can’t come after possessive pronouns.
…and about the creepiest choice of words I’ve come across in a long time.
As used here, it implies ownership – not actions…which is just plain creepy. Nothing “logical or reasonable†or acceptable, even in our dumbed-down educationl standards. Over the top “ickâ€.
No, it doesn’t imply any such thing. If I talk about my friend, I don’t own my friend. If I talk about my mortal enemy, I don’t own them either. So why not talk about my pedophile, other than the fact that I personally don’t have one of those?
But let’s check the OED! (Because I can totally do that.)
Of or belonging to me; of or relating to myself; which I have, hold, or possess.
This guy is a pedophile in relation to herself, he (presumably) molested her when she was a child. Perhaps “my child molester” would be more accurate (since we don’t know if that’s his primary attraction), but it’s still perfectly clear to me, and I’d be really surprised if the other people didn’t understand exactly what she meant as well. The point of language is communication, after all, and she communicated her relationship to this guy efficiently and plainly.
Okay, so I read the entire court case and no one “tried to stick his penis” in anyone’s mouth. There was penis-to-lip contact ONLY because the penis is right next to the butt. Duh!
The victims WERE boys not girls, which seems to be really important to a lot of people. Especially those crying out for the death penalty in this case, and admittedly makes the sexual eliment less likely.
One of the 14 year olds had just turned 14 that day, That’s hardly the “cusp of manhood.”
Lastly, when you read the entire testimony of all the parties, the victims don’t appear to have been all that traumatized (although it was certainly a very nasty experience) and the perpetrators don’t appear to be all that vicious (though they are definitely stupid and bullies).
Bottom line, nothing that happened appears to have had ANY underlying sexual motivation in the sense of being sexually stimulating to the perpetrators. It was an escalation of an ongoing confrontation in broad daylight in a public place, Yes, rape can happen in broad daylight in a public place, but it just doesn’t fit this scenario if you READ the trial transcript. IMHO.
Bottom line, nothing that happened appears to have had ANY underlying sexual motivation in the sense of being sexually stimulating to the perpetrators.
Except that sexual assault is, as noted already in the comments to this very post, more often motivated by violence and anger rather than by lust.
It doesn’t have to be sexually stimulating to ANYbody.
Uly – please.
I “get” what drama queen was implying.
An “ophile” of any sort is someone with an interest or attraction to something.
A “Francophile” is someone who enjoys France. It does not mean they have been to France, or molested France. It just means they have an interest.
A person can be a pedophile without ever touching a child. Pedophile is NOT an action. “My molester”, “my abuser” is acceptable.
“My pedophile” is ignorant.
The fastest growing population on sex offender registries are 14 year old boys.
14 year old boys who sit on 12 year old boy’s faces are NOT pedophiles.
Pedophiles have nothing to do with this conversation.
Give it a rest already.
Sgt Mom, you’re nitpicking. I said that the people going on and on about how they didn’t know what she was saying were wrong to do so, not that her entire comment was correct.
You, too, jumped on her for the use of the word “my” rather than her use of the word “pedophile”. You’re now saying that your objection was with the use of the word pedophile, but that’s not at all what your original comment was about.
14 year old boys who sit on 12 year old boy’s faces are NOT pedophiles.
I never said they were.
Pedophiles have nothing to do with this conversation.
And I never said they did. I said that if you’re going to criticize somebody’s language instead of their points, you should at least make your criticism good.
Robert John Crowe: THANK YOU for giving the context surrounding this case.
WOW, Im pretty disgusted. Have we really gotten to the point where all pranks and stupid behavior is a criminal offense? Everything that has anything to do with a genital is a sexual offense- and that harsh, lifetime, punishment is necessarily what must follow? Do we really think that locking them up, or punishing them as if they were rapists is going to improve their behavior?
Are kids so weak that someone sitting on nude them scars them for LIFE? Really? Flame me if you want, but if thats considered a major trauma, life is going to be very tough for those kids. I was RAPED as a teen, by a scary older criminal, and wasn’t scarred for life over it. There has to be some sort of understanding of the degrees of abuse, as labeling this as the same as molesting a baby is just not right. And its one thing to help the victim without making them one forever.
I’m not saying its OK to do what these kids did. It’s not ok. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be punishment. I AM saying that its not a criminal justice problem. It seems like we want the “system” to take care of everything these days, and this requires criminalizing every action. its ridiculous and needs to stop.
and the offender registry- this is such an injustice, and it’s not even helpful. I hate sexual predators too, but this is not the way to handle the problem. It hurts way more than it helps.
Dolly says:
Dolly, on July 23, 2011 at 21:10 said:
“……Community service and counseling my ass. They need to be expelled from school if this happened at school. They need to be sent to juvenile for maybe a couple months…….
So I don’t think they really belong on the registry list but the idea of them suffering for the rest of their lives does make me smile. Bullys deserve to suffer”
Thats pretty disturbing.
“Sexual, private parts-call the penis and anis what you like. To put them in anyone persons at any age says you see seriously disturbed, and if you don’t know by age 14 how wrong that is than live with it-your chose it….
From age 0 to 14 they learned, they failed.”
Wow, such harshness. I bet you support the death penalty for minors too. I sure hope you don’t have any kids that are spirited, troublemakers, or practical jokers, because in your world they can be condemned for life because of something they did at 14.
Do you see 14 yr olds as adults? Why not let them drive, send them to war, let them drink and not listen to their parents, too? And “seriously disturbed”- REALLY? maybe you should look it up before you label people as such.
All this talk about revenge rape is horrifying. Especially from people who think it’s an unconscionable, abominable, brutal, crime to tea bags someone in jest.
““How is, say, farting in someone’s face sexual in nature?â€
Because your butt shouldn’t be on somebody else’s body without their permission. ”
That explains why you think farting in someone’s face is a crime. That doesn’t explain why it’s a SEXUAL crime. Nobody should grab my arm without my permission either, but that doesn’t make it a sex crime. Unless you are willing to define ANY nonconsensual activity involving the butt (i.e. a spanking) as a sex crime, then your explanation doesn’t hold water.
LRH- glad your back!
I’m so glad I grew up when I did. The things us kids did…. let’s just say we would all be in lifelong trouble now. When I think back to the overtly sexual play and games, and some other stuff that was not so nice (like pulling each others pants down in front of the whole class, aka “depantsing”) and I think of those involved. The neighbor kids, of varying ages, often many years apart, were always up to something.
Nowadays, All are doing well. None grew up to be criminals of any sort, and are all have been upstanding citizens at 18, 25, now 35 yrs old. None are rapists or perverts. We all have families and careers, and no criminal records to ruin our opportunities. We were lucky not to have cameras and cell phones, web access and web cams, at an age where smart thinking was the exception not the rule. There are no pics to haunt us now.
To think that all that could be lost had one parent walked in on a dirty game of “doctor” and labeled it abuse- well, that’s horrifying. I don’t see what could have been gained, but I can see how much could’ve been lost. At great cost, to ourselves, our families, and society in general.
These things happen amongst normal kids. “Jackass” style pranks are common, and kids will act out in sexual ways. Butts and farts and penises and vaginas are funny and interesting to humans, especially young ones. Kids compete, jump on and push each other, form groups, and act like little savages at times. This is human nature. I don’t know why, or when, we forgot this. By criminalizing every action that’s even thought to be a little bit inappropriate, we create an enormous class of second, or third, hand people with records. We use resources that should be used for true predators, and make small events into huge issues.
In no way am I saying that kids should be allowed to do what they want- no way.They need to learn that force isn’t funny, body parts are their own, as well as the rules of social engagement that enable adults to live peaceably. Punishment is fine, but calling the cops for everything? It isn’t usually the best first response. I’m not forgetting the victims either. There are better ways to deal with victims of this type of thing than by teaching them justice equals lifelong penalty and zero empathy. Categorizing all unpleasant events as equal to rape and murder does no one any good, and negates true suffering.
Let the punishment fit the crime, and let only crimes be called such.
The truth of the matter is that Megan’s Law is now being used as a vengeful weapon against society. A huge proportion of the “offenders” on the list are teenagers, who, were not even mature enough to sign their name on a contract to buy a car…let alone aid in their own criminal defense.
It has become more apparent that the S.O. Registry separates people in society. Furthermore, there is no compassion in the law. For example their is no thought to re-intergrate a past offender into society after he has paid for his crime. YOU KNOW, THEY DO GET OUT OF PRISON, DUH!
The S.O. Registry began as an aid to know where a sex offender lived. Period. It does not actually protect children against any offender. I guess the writers of this law never thought that an offender could go into another county to commit another crime.
As for the “child sex offenders” it is moronic to believe that any person under the age of 18 is capable of realizing the consequences of his/her actions. That is why they have parents. There have been numerous studies that frontal lobe development of the brain is not completed until age 25. So, the question begs to be asked why we aren’t demanding our legislatures to change or repeal these draconic laws that only sound right when politicians want to get re-elected by making you afraid of the boogeyman next-door.
The behavior these teenagers displayed was typical jerky 14 year old boy behavior and not sexual predator behavior. People who think this is sexual predator are Koolaid drinking liberals who emotionally invested in the feminists anti male agenda. Basically your mentally ill. Go take some of the ritilin you like giving our young male children. Might help if you follow some cops around who investigate real sex crimes against children and it might educate you as to what sex crimes are.
As for the “child sex offenders†it is moronic to believe that any person under the age of 18 is capable of realizing the consequences of his/her actions.
Are you absolutely deranged?
Uly and applepackard: The neuroscientists who did the studies showing that the prefrontal lobes don’t stop developing until the mid-twenties are generally tearing their hair out at the way those results have been overinterpreted. They do not show that teenagers are somehow less mature or responsible than they were previously thought to be, or that we should prolong childhood even longer than we already do.
What the results do show, though, is that if a teenager shows bad judgment, there’s a very good chance that he’ll develop better judgment as he gets older, and therefore shouldn’t be written off as hopeless. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be held responsible for his actions and punished for his wrongdoing; it does mean that the punishment shouldn’t be of a “one strike and you’re out” nature.
Ok this is what I think as a 19 year old male: at the age of 14, something like this is in NO WAY sexual. It’s simply considered comical by boys who have a sick sense of humor. Sitting on someone’s face with you’re bare butt is a prank. Not even bullying (assuming they knew the kids, and this was not a recurring theme). This small lapse of judgment shouldn’t ruin their lives.
Ry, I completely agree. From the information I have, I don’t automatically see this as bullying. My friends and I teased each other like this all the time when I was that age, and it wasn’t sexual or bullying.
At any rate, these kids, regardless of whether they were bullying or just playing, shouldn’t be on the sex offender registry.
Sex offender lists are totally out of control. they are putting everyone on there whether it is violent or not. A violent crime i could agree with the list but lets make sure that is what it was. Looking at the whole list thing and the laws which cover it. OMG they have so many on the list who have never touched anyone.
@Ry: I can easily see my son and his friends doing stuff like that with each other. Yesterday I was at the gym and my son came along with two of his friends. The boys are 12 and 13 years old. I was using a treadmill that overlooked the main gym, where the boys were playing. Every once in a while I’d look down to see what the kids were doing because they sometimes have a tendency to get too out of hand with their play to the point of abusing the equipment. On one occasion I looked down and two of the boys were rolling the third one in a mat and then sitting on him. Then they’d switch. I knew that nobody was getting hurt because there was a lot of laughter from everyone, even the kid who was getting rolled up in the mat. I got to thinking about this topic and how easy it would be for this type of play to escalate to having a bare butt in the face. Knowing these particular kids, even the person being sat on with a butt in the face would think it’s funny. Butts, farts, and burping are the three most humorous things to those kids.
Nevertheless, if my son and his friends were sitting bare-butted on each other’s faces, I would let them know that that’s not appropriate behavior. There would be some sort of consequence, depending on how the kids reacted to it (e.g. everyone thinking it’s funny or some kids feeling like they’re being bullied). But a 14-year-old who sits bare-butted on another kid’s face should not wind up on a sex offender registry for the rest of his life. To me this is not sexual behavior, but kids being stupid and immature. Sex offender registries should be reserved for those who commit serious crimes like rape or child molestation.
I agree they are teenage jerks not sex offenders. We are really going too far with our kids today. Not only are pranks like these being treated as sexual crimes, but also normal childhood sexual exploration between same age friends in which both are willing partners. Also play between brothers or sisters. Other nations are not so afraid of sexual exploration between children and we were once not so afraid. Now we do not even teach our kids about puberty. For example, boys today are scared something is wrong when they wakeup after a wet dream. No one ever told him what to expect. I was never told but had to read it at a book store.
@DAVID A MORSE
> For example, boys today are scared something is wrong when they wakeup after a wet dream. No one ever told him what to expect.
Can you back that up?I through that opposite is true, that they are better informed. I’m not trying to nitpick, I’m really interested in subject.
“Uly said:
.((..As for the “child sex offenders†it is moronic to believe that any person under the age of 18 is capable of realizing the consequences of his/her actions…))
Are you absolutely deranged?”
—————————-
Aren’t YOU the one absolutely deranged?
I gotta a News Flash for ya, Uly.
It’s not like there are legions of “lifers” convicted at age 14 year who are now in their 80’s you can make example of.
YET.
The first wave of 14 year olds prosecuted under the never ending Meghan/Adam/Jacob/Jessica/Dru/Amber/ vengeance laws have yet to reach their 30th birthday.
How could THESE two 14 year olds possibly know just how doomed their life is now?
We still have MANY more torturous decades lfet before the first wave crop of listed juvenile sex offenders reach their final destiny (exception being those that have already suicided).
To date, NO 14 year olds have actually witnessed the full blown consequences of having committed a swirly…. at age 14.
14 year olds do not now commonly know and accept that offensive pranks they do now will forever ruin any chance they have for a normal life til. the. day. they. die.
…or how their relentless damnation will also include their parents, siblings,lovers and whatever future children (they may or may not be allowed) being shunned and punished by association for acts their juvenile transgressions?
What kid knows the terms of their conviction will only continue to change for the worse, piling on more and more punishments and restrictions as time goes on because “you gave up your rights” -at age 14 – and…face it – you will no longer be considered a human being anymore, anyway.
Last I heard kids were still being taught about the Constitution and The Greatest Justice System In The World fairy story. They have NO idea justice or rights no longer exist for those designated for a life on the list.
If these boys had committed murder they wouldn’t have such harsh consequences to look forward to. The US was the last industrialized nation reluctantly shamed out of executing juveniles only a few years ago. With the rest of thw rold scorning us, we have become kinder and gentler toward kids who murder…
Looks like we’ve found a pretty wicked alternative for unempathetic 14 year old boys, however.
Just sayin’….
Neither one of these 14 year olds bullied Dolly or “pedophiled” Angie, Becky or anyone else here.
These unsolicited victim impact statement/life ruination declaration rags should really be reserved for persons that actually committed their alleged offenses.
Andy, on July 25, 2011 at 15:28 said:
” ” ” Can you back that up?I through that opposite is true, that they are better informed. I’m not trying to nitpick, I’m really interested in subject.”””
I think David was projecting his own experience on “kids today”.
There’s a difference between being “better informed” or simply “more informed”.
I’ll get hissed and boo’d off the stage for saying this, but it’s true – the Beaver Cleaver generation didn’t know what a wet dream was…but they didn’t know about Presidential oral sex or prison rape jokes, either.
You’d be hard pressed to find young kids that DON’T know stuff like that, now days.
I never saw or heard a sex act at the movies, much less on TV, as a kid.
Any kid can see or hear ” adult content” just about anytime 24/7- on regular TV.
The fact is, kids today are exposed to far more sexual information than they are equiped to handle, at far earlier ages, than in times past.
Then, for some reason, everyone goes around pretending kids are still 1950’s “innocent” and Beaver Cleaver -esque while knowing damn well they can’t possibly be.
Then God help the dumbass kid(s) who didn’t “get it”….who misinterpreted, misunderstood, or misread the signals and implications not spelled out adequately enough for them. Instead of checking the sexual overkill we gorge our kids on or providing better guidance, adults instead bring the hammer down with righteous indignation and a wailing Greek Chorus of “lost innocence”, “forever damaged” and “life ruination”.
At least that’s my take on it. I don’t mean to speak for David.
ebohlman — thanks for providing that explanation of the frontal lobe studies. Those never sat right with me — it didn’t make sense that people generally assumed all the responsibilities of adulthood starting at 16-18 for centuries, if not millennia, mostly successfully, and now we suddenly can’t trust kids with their own well-being until years past that? To the extent that’s true, it is more likely that there are sociological reasons for it, than hard-wired ones.
The interpretation you’ve provided fits with what humanity has known all along — people under 25 or so are more prone to “youthful mistakes and follies,” but that doesn’t mean they’re incompetent to be trusted with their own or others’ well-being, or to be able to judge the significance of their own actions.
Confirmation bias? Maybe, but it’s hard to discount millennia of human experience in favor of neurological data that only tells you what the brain is doing, not necessarily what it means.
The idea of writing 2 bullies off for life as sex offenders is not as unique or different as you think. Kids (and other non-violent offenders) are written off for life in the criminal “justice” system all the time. When kids, sometimes even pre-teens, are charged as adults for felonies, their lives are changed forever, and redemption is difficult, or impossible to acheive.
Long, long sentences for drug crimes involving possession or sale of small quantities makes plea bargains the rule for felony drug charges. After release, the man or woman is still part of the system, probably in jeopardy of return to prison under many terms of parole. Many rights and priviliges are denied to felons and their families (not just SO’s) and finding lawful employment is just about impossible. In some jurisdictions, a person convicted as a youth for a felony may never be able to vote. Learn more about how badly for everyone charging and sentencing youth as adults has worked in Oregon, and more…
http://www.campaignforyouthjustice.org/
I apologize for reposting this link, but it’s not usually “our type of kids” that get caught in the youth justice system as often. It’s an issue that people who aren’t poor or Latina or African American probably don’t consider a parenting issue, or don’t consider ever happens to kids who have “good” parents. But it does.
Frankly, for a 14 year-old, when the pants and underwear (notice how the author just says “they pulled down their pants”–yeah) come down, and he sat, bare-bottomed on the other boy’s face. Buttocks and anus touching nose/face, penis passing the lips into the mouth.
It is obviously sexual. There is nothing more sexual than this.
I don’t imagine the assault victim was just laying there so the other boy must have been restraining him. And, besides the unsanitariness of some 14 boy placing his anus on another boys nose, a penis went in his mounth. Trust me, if someone’s penis “breached the lips”, and they were my lips, then that penis was IN MY MOUTH.
This was sexual. Pure and simple, sexual.
richard said: “penis passing the lips into the mouth.”
Richard, you’re full of s**t. You don’t know this, and the article does NOT state anything like this. In other words, you’re making this up. Maybe it’s a fantasy of yours, perhaps?
“It is obviously sexual. There is nothing more sexual than this.”
Really? Rape and/or intercourse aren’t “more sexual” than this? Forced sodomy isn’t “more sexual” than this? Groping someone’s genitals isn’t “more sexual” than this? Seriously?
“a penis went in his mounth.”
No, there is no mention of this whatsoever. Stop inventing things that never happened.
“This was sexual. Pure and simple, sexual”
To kooks like you, anything below the waist is “sexual”. If put my hand in my pocket, it’d be “sexual” in your mind.
“Sounds like the type of guys that bullied me when I was 14.” That about sums it up I think. I wonder if the Judge was bullied as a child?
“I’ll get hissed and boo’d off the stage for saying this, but it’s true – the Beaver Cleaver generation didn’t know what a wet dream was…”
Please, the “Beaver Cleaver generation” was not actually living the life of Beaver Cleaver. All but the most sheltered knew what a wet dream was. The Beaver Cleaver generation got information from older brothers and friends with older brothers. The Beaver Cleaver generation was having sex and then had to go “live with an aunt” after they got pregnant.
That is not to say that today’s generation isn’t more knowledgeable about sex at younger ages, but a wet dream is a pretty basic thing that 12-14 year olds knew about even in the 50’s.
Uly and Donna, let’s say I walk from the shower to my locker at the gym, sans towel. I have exposed myself to everyone in the room but if there is a homosexual present would it be a sexual offense because there COULD be a sexual element? I am confused, would it only be an offense against that/those individual(s)? Is this an offense against everyone?
There is a dude who totally does not use a towel, can I get him arrested in IL?
I have to agree with Sarah as well. Should there be something that looks at people’s behavior more in depth as time goes on to judge whether maturity alone has solved the problem of “sex offending”? Perhaps.
Are these “kids” only as bad as a Dennis the menace prank that shouldn’t be followed for years to avoid college age “pranks” that become hardcore and scarring hazing at the least? I don’t think so.
I know this is an easily triggering topic for me in particular (my good citizen rapist was only 14 as well) but the complete disregard for how serious this “prank” might effect it’s true victims is almost enough to have me stop checking this blog altogether.
Though at any rate it has turned me off for today.
Bethny First, if you will forgive me, “it’s true victims is almost enough“–its should be like that, without the apostrophe. You’re not saying “it is true victims is almost enough.” It goes like this: “The dog wagged its tail” (no apostrophe) or “It’s time to go home” (short for “it is time to go home,” you DO use the apostrophe).
Sorry, but I can’t stand the mis-use of it’s that way, just a pet peeve of mine.
More to the point: we free-rangers aren’t disregarding the effect the “prank” had, as much as we’re saying this: a sex offender registry is supposed to be about warning people of real EXTREME sick types which leave nearby. Child molesters, rapists, pedophiles–that kind of thing, not people who urinate in public behind a tree & didn’t know someone saw it, or 14 year-olds behaving badly in a 14-year old kind of way. When it’s over-used this sort of way (it’s being the proper usage there), it dilutes the seriousness of the REAL serious situations, the listing thus is diluted of most of its effectiveness (no apostrophe that time in its), and that’s not right.
LRH
MattL – I don’t think so, but then I don’t think that this was a sexual offense either. I think we need to stop being so repressed and stop viewing everything involving the naked body as some sort of sex crime. It demeans true sex crimes and gives people a very negative viewpoint on the human body.
How does this make kids safer? There was a stage when the boys would pull down the girls balloon pants in school (I’m aging myself, here, mid eighties) . THANK GOD they werent accused of being a “sex offender” We just stopped wearing balloon pants (awful style anyway)
Donna (and others): You might enjoy reading Judith Levine’s Harmful to Minors. Her thesis is that we’re so scared of anything to do with children/teenagers and sexuality because, starting in the Victorian era, we’ve created an ideal of childhood resembling Victorian ideals of womanhood, one that’s simultaneously sexualized and “innocent” (think Jon Benet Ramsey, and note the appearance of the good old virgin/whore dichotomy).
LRH – While Bethy is triggered off to her fainting couch with the vapors, I will reiterate the fact that sex offenders registries are completely useless.
It really doesn’t matter if they are “diluted” with goofy 14 year olds or 100% mad dogs
– the register is ineffective for what it’s stated purpose is .
Yes, Sgt Mom as a matter of fact I am still bullied regularly. On this site for sure. LOL. I was bullied out of a mom’s club because I stood up to them about some unfair practices that took advantage of other moms in the club. Since I had many supporters it proved that my cause was just but unfortunately the bad moms won out.
I also had my special needs child made fun of and excluded by adults. So yes, bullying still happens and I would love to see my bullies pay even for the rest of their lives if need be.
I have severe damage to my emotional and mental health that started about the same age these kids are, 14. The bullying things done to me which were actually not nearly as bad as someone forcefully sitting on my face, still effect me today. I still have low self esteem from when boys would bark at me as I walked down the hallways letting me know they thought I was “Dog ugly”. I still have a hard time getting along with women in general because after being backstabbed and mean girled in middle school I have a hard time trusting women at their word and wonder if their intentions are pure or not.
I still suffer from bullying in the past and the present. My bullies never had to make amends or pay a penalty. I like to see other bullies not getting off so easy and their families need to pay too because they were the ones who raised them to be that way.
SgtMom said: “While Bethy is triggered off to her fainting couch with the vapors…”
Lol, made me laugh!
SgtMom said: “I will reiterate the fact that sex offenders registries are completely useless.”
I agree- sex offenders registries are useless, possibly worse than useless. Like the “No-Fly” list, they’re no better than a random collection of names and the harm they do is both unnecessary and avoidable. They *sound* like good ideas but in practice are pointless and misleading. (After all, no real terrorist would ever change his *name*, right?)
Dolly said: “Yes, Sgt Mom as a matter of fact I am still bullied regularly.”
I have to say that if you’re an adult and are “still bullied regularly”, a good portion of the fault is likely yours. As an adult, you have recourse but for whatever reason you choose to do nothing.
This is like the person who complains the he/she has had 20 bad bosses in a row. At some point you have to step back and recognize that that just doesn’t happen. If you’ve had 20 bad bosses in a row, guess what- the problem is YOU.
I’ll say it again: if you’re an adult and are “still bullied regularly”, you MUST realize that some of the responsibility for this happening belongs to YOU.
Dolly said: “I still have low self esteem from when boys would bark at me”
Here’s a tip for you: Your self esteem comes from YOU, not from other people. That’s why it includes the word “self”. No one can take a way your self esteem without your permission and cooperation.
There’s nothing wrong with your sense of self-esteem, Dolly.
To quote John Rosemond:
“..research also finds that the higher a person’s self-regard, the lower his regard for others.
It is also noteworthy that high self-esteem puts the individual at high risk for bouts of severe depression. People with high self-esteem want to be paid attention to and served. They believe in their entitlement. On the other hand, folks with high regard for others pay attention to others and look for opportunities to serve them.”
Read more: http://lacrossetribune.com/lifestyles/article_f8622aea-c67e-11df-a0c7-001cc4c002e0.html#ixzz1TDdHKDkd
Anybody who cheers at the thought of children being shunned and disadvantaged for the rest of their lives because some other, unrelated kids were ‘mean’ to her in middleschool has an overinflated sense of self.
“Some kid was mean to ME when I was 14, and because of what happened to ME I want all other 14 yo who remind me of what happened to ME to suffer for all eternity” can hardly be construed as ‘lacking in self-esteem’.
Try some high regard for others, for a change. Heck, try some empathy for others, for that you are lacking too.
Mike: So I am the bad guy because when our moms club ignored one member who got breast cancer and never did anything for her yet did a bunch of stuff for another favorite mom who got breast cancer, I was wrong for speaking up about the unfairness of that? When both moms deserved meals delivered, cards, offers of babysitting, money, support etc and both paid their dues? I kept asking and waiting for the club to do something for the first mom who got breast cancer and the club never did anything for her so finally I did something for her on my own.
Then when the second mom got breast cancer the same group of women fell all over themselves to help her, I helped the second mom too but pointed out that it was very unfair that they never did this for the first mom and that was an epic fail on their part. Then of course they ran their mouths about me and eventually kicked me out of the club for “not being positive” enough. Yeah, its all on me for being a jerk. LOL.
Also pointing out that the mom that got ignored thanked me for speaking up for her and so did several other moms. I spoke up and then got shot down by the “mean girls”. Guys don’t understand women culture. The mean girl stuff never goes away.
Marion: see above post. It was my regard for the ignored mom with breast cancer that got me bullied.
Dolly said: “So I am the bad guy….”
Stop right there, and quit playing this asinine martyr game.
I never said you were the bad guy, but thanks for twisting this around to build up your Pity-Party credits. Only 500 more and you can get the fondue fork set!
NO, what I said is that you must realize that some of the responsibility for this happening belongs to YOU. If that’s not clear enough for you, I’m not sure what else to say.
“Then when the second mom got breast cancer the same group of women fell all over themselves to help her”
Right, so maybe they LEARNED something from the first episode, but according to you, even that was wrong? Even THAT was cause for complaint. Or, maybe they just didn’t like the first person, or maybe they liked the second person better. Who cares? What does it matter, except as an opportunity for you to play the martyr card again?
“Guys don’t understand women culture.”
Yeah, cuz we’re like, so so dumb and all, huh huh huh. All we do is ogle chicks and watch NASCAR, huh huh huh.
Nice way to smear half of the human race, Dolly. Do you ever stop to think that the things you say might have SOMETHING to do with the way you’re treated? Do you get it at all?
Frankly, after this little bit of interaction with you, I can SEE why you have some of the problems you have. You’re sexist, self-focused, intent on playing the “people-are-so-mean-to-me” card, and appear to have very little understanding of how and why people relate to you. You also won’t take a SHRED of responsibility for what happens to you.
In a few paragraphs you’ve managed to convert me into a non-believer in your hallowed victim status, Saint Dolly.
Congrats right back Mike. In a few paragraphs you have convinced me you are an ass and a half. I guess we both learned something today. Or maybe just maybe some people do attack others and the bystanders that decide to stand up for the ones getting attacked, get attacked next. Which is exactly what happened in the instance above I gave you an example of. If I had to pick the nicer of the two women in the story I gave the first woman would be it. But either way, both women were nice and both needed support. They didn’t learn anything from the first incidence. They didn’t even remember the first woman till I brought her up.
Mike ps it was a mom’s club that everyone pays the same dues to join and get benefits of the club such as help in times of need. So whether or not they liked her it was the duty of the officers of the club to try to help her out which they did not. But it was not a case of her not being liked. More of a case of her not being a part of the main ruling clique.
Good Lord! This whole topic has deteriorated into a junior high nit-picking session! Wasn’t the original topic about the unfairness of sentencing two half-wit teenagers to a lifetime of Hell on an absolutely pointless and pretty much worthless registry? In the last few days, I’ve seen self-righteous grammar and punctuation lessons, pity-parties, and insults. I thought this was for ADULTS who might just be able to work TOGETHER to make things BETTER for the UPCOMING GENERATIONS. Can we all just grow up and get back on topic? (Although, as I re-read some of these comments, it now becomes obvious why it’s so easy for judges and juries to overlook common sense in favor of their own personal life experiences from eons ago).
Dolly: “I would love to see my bullies pay even for the rest of their lives if need be”
Oh, my.
Vengeance isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, Dolly.
If you are allowed the pleasure of seeing other’s pay, it usually comes with the message “YOUR punishment is next”.
That’s what sucks about Karma – it doesn’t just happen to other people.
Inevitably, you get yours as well.
Dolly, it sounds like you may be sad and in pain a lot of the time. You have a lot on your plate just being a mom, and having a special needs child is a whole other level of service and committment, even if that relationship is maybe no longer 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year? You might be better able to rebound from the bad things that have happened to you in life if someone like your clergyperson or a counsellor devoted time to your needs for a change instead of your giving all the time and just not being able to recover from the times in your life you’ve been wounded. I found myself stronger and I had more to give my family, even though I told my doctor “What do you mean, I have more insight? That’s great, but you can have all the X-rays you want on a broken arm, and still be in pain!”
It’s better that bullying is talked more about in schools now, and I think there’s more understanding that the bullies have been bullied themselves, and probably abused at home. How to react to bullies is not taught creatively enough, I don’t think. Fighting back is only going to cause more problems, personally and administratively–even if there’s no retaliation, who struck first? What kind of disciplinary action to take when every child is the one who is the victim, not the aggressor? The most important kids to reach for behaviour change are the majority who usually watch and go along–without them there won’t be any bullies or bullied kids; but just saying “tell on the bullies” won’t be enough–don’t go along with teasing the fat girl like I remember doing. Teach a different way to react to teasing–laugh it off, even if you have to fake it, instead of ignoring it, ignore it instead of crying. And schools have a soul, just like they have team spirit, or not. If the football team is important, and being safe isn’t, or school is a prison for teachers and students, the product is broken people. One stream of Columbine was like that, and no one noticed. Sending anyone to prison for extended solitary and assumed sexual assault makes a country more prone to that, because revenge is bullying.
Dolly — your age 14+ sounds a lot like my ages 11-17. It even continued a bit, in college — the barking and mean girls and all that kind of thing. I consider myself average in looks but there’s something about my appearance and manner that triggered it, and to some extent, still does put some people off, I think.
I find that letting go of it and not longing for vengeance has worked a lot better for me. Stuff that happens in middle school does NOT need to keep eating at you in adulthood, painful as the memories are. That’s a whole lot of emotional energy and defensiveness you seem to be walking around with, that I’m here to tell you, you don’t need. Even if you’re getting those reactions to this day, it’s the problem of the people doing it, and your dwelling on it, getting defensive about it, looking for it to happen, and hoping everyone in the world who is mean gets theirs, only hurts you. Some very wise person once said, “Bitterness is like drinking poison and hoping it makes the other person die.”
That is right. We are adults trying to make the world a better place for our kids and that means ending the cycle of bully behavior being passed off as “Boys will be boys” or “They were just teasing” or “toughen up” or “it will build character” etc etc blah blah. That is bull and it is not helping our society. It certainly did not help me. I was a very optimistic person till all that bullying happened and now I am one of the most pessimistic people you would ever met. Our kids deserve better. They deserve their tormentors to be punished so much so that other kids think better of bullying next time. Our kids need to be taught that bullying is not okay.
This is relevant to the topic because those boys possibly were bullying and someone stood up to them. They may have overshot and gone too far by putting them on the sexual predator list, but at least they did something! Better than just shrugging and saying “Boys will be boys”. Now let’s find a happy medium to this and continue it in the future.
Dolly said: “Congrats right back Mike. In a few paragraphs you have convinced me you are an ass and a half.”
In other words, you have nothing substantive to say, and no answers to any of the points I brought up. It’s all about you and how downtrodden you are. Bravo!
“Mike ps it was a mom’s club that everyone pays the same dues to join and get benefits of the club such as help in times of need.”
I’m a single dad and I’ve raised my son alone for the last 15 years, without the benefit of any helpful “moms clubs” or other fallbacks or support networks. And I’m not going to sit here and whine about how hard it was or how the schools and other parents were so unfair to me, etc etc. It was my job; I did it.
But remember now, I’m just a dumb ‘ol male who don’t unnerstand any of dat komplikated “women culture” stuff.
So please, feel free to revel in your endless revenge fantasies and tales of personal oppression which seem to give you so much pleasure. I’ll be busy raising my son.
Dolly said: “and now I am one of the most pessimistic people you would ever met.”
Say it isn’t so! lol
The sad part is that you’re self-aware enough to recognize that, but STILL stick to that behavior.
Yeah Mike you are so busy raising your son that you are on the internet. Same goes for me but at least I admit it. You seem to think you are some kind of superior parent when you are posting just as much as I am.
For the record, you would have been welcomed in our club by me whether you were a man or a woman as long as you were a parent. Now the clique, well I can’t speak for them. They liked to exclude all kinds of people.
Oh God forbid a mom with multiple kids going through breast cancer ask for support or help!!!!! Man you look like a total insensitive ass with that sentiment. So being a single father is harder than chemotherapy now? Since when? These moms had husbands who had to work full time too to pay bills so they were going through chemotherapy and radiation while taking care of the kids full time. How dare you minimize their efforts! For shame!
Dolly said: “Yeah Mike you are so busy raising your son that you are on the internet.”
Yes, heaven forbid that I don’t hover over a 17-year old night and day, lol!
“You seem to think you are some kind of superior parent”
I never said any such thing, but thanks for making stuff up!
“when you are posting just as much as I am.”
I work at home so I’m free to do what I like. 🙂 And you’ll have to forgive me- I didn’t know there was an approved limit for posting, lol. 🙂
“Man you look like a total insensitive ass with that sentiment.”
Lol, except for the fact that I never said that. Are you so desperate that you have to lie, or are you just a pathological liar?
“So being a single father is harder than chemotherapy now?”
Lol, again, please point out where I said that. 🙂
“How dare you minimize their efforts! For shame!”
Lol!! You make this stuff up out of whole cloth and then try to shame me for things I never said. You’re quite the piece of work, Dolly!
Sorry Dolly, but I think everyone here can see who is the whacko in this conversation.
Now Dolly, please respond with another heapin’ helpin’ of lies and more nutty, made-up stuff. I can’t wait to hear what a terrible terrible person I am. And just to start you off, I confess- it was me on the Grassy Knoll! lol
Now I’m off to drown some puppies and burn down a nursing home or two. Maybe on the way back I’ll be able to find the time to rob a bank and shoot a cop, too. 🙂
Dolly, when bullies are punished severely, in the abusive kind of juvenile or adult prison you talk about, where prison rape is considered just part of life; that is just beginning the cycle of abuse for the next generation of bullies, who will get out to father and abuse the bullies of your grandchildren. Do you really think that getting vicarious revenge on your bullies is more important than trying to change kid’s behavior?
Dolly, you are NOT one to talk about other parents being on the internet. I, for one, don’t even believe you a) have young kids b) have twins. due to the incredible amount of time you have to write multiple posts on every story. If you do have these kids, then you don’t really have the to accuse ANYONE of spending too much time on the internet.
And even if they do, who again made you Boss of Internet Usage?
(from Mayson) Good Lord! This whole topic has deteriorated into a junior high nit-picking session! Wasn’t the original topic about the unfairness of sentencing two half-wit teenagers to a lifetime of Hell on an absolutely pointless and pretty much worthless registry? In the last few days, I’ve seen self-righteous grammar and punctuation lessons, pity-parties, and insults. I thought this was for ADULTS who might just be able to work TOGETHER to make things BETTER for the UPCOMING GENERATIONS. Can we all just grow up and get back on topic? (Although, as I re-read some of these comments, it now becomes obvious why it’s so easy for judges and juries to overlook common sense in favor of their own personal life experiences from eons ago).
I agree with Mayson. Either this discussion needs to get back onto the original topic of two teenagers being given a lifetime sentence for juvenile stupidity or it needs to be closed to further comments. I’m a moderator for a sports forum and would not have let this bickering back and forth continue. If I was moderating this thread, it would have been closed a while back. It would be a real shame if Lenore had to start setting rules about commenting on her posts or had to come up with a way to ban certain users. While disagreement keeps things lively, the name-calling and self-righteous attitudes need to go. I don’t even care if a thread drifts off-topic, as most will naturally do after a while. But the “you’re a jerk,” “you’re a bully,” “you’re picking on me” stuff detracts from the original topic and escalates to the point where it’s practically out of control.
It has been interesting to read the whole spectrum of responses to sitting bare-butted on another kid’s face. Some of us have the attitude of “boys will be boys and do stupid things like that.” Others feel that the face sitters are deeply disturbed bullies who will become the next generation of sadistic perverts. Regardless of where our attitudes fall on this spectrum, I think that we all agree that a lifetime of being on a mostly worthless sex offender registry was a punishment that was out of proportion to the “crime.” Rant over.
gap-runner, I am glad you are not the moderator for this forum.
I am even more glad that Lenore does not censor or regulate the remarks here.
That’s the beauty of Lenore’s site.
It’s raw, it’s honest – it’s purely reflective of our society at large and obviously the reason our Justice system and political system are such a shambles.
Speaking for myself, I am praying for a sooner than later demise of the new “IM MA VICTIM” self absorption religion that has overtaken the American mindset to such an obsessive degree.
That we even have discussions of whether or not to forever ruin the life of a 14 year old shows how far we as a nation have strayed.
The astounding thing is how we, as a nation, are passing law after law after law “to save the children” we looooove so much, while the fastest growing segment of our population whose lives are systematically being ruined and damaged by these laws are….children.
I strongly recommend reading the opinion. These boys tried to orally rape another boy. This was not a joke or a game.
ParatrooperJJ said: “I strongly recommend reading the opinion. These boys tried to orally rape another boy.”
Please show us where there is anything in any of the documents that makes any claim about oral rape.
@SgtMom, There have been very few times when the moderators on my sports forum have had to close a discussion. We give warnings to get the discussion back on track and if people persist in straying so far off topic or degenerating into calling each other “flippin’ morons” or “pinheads” in every sentence, then it gets shut down. People usually want to keep a discussion going and state their opinions without calling each other idiots. In my opinion, this thread had gone far in that direction.
I like this site because there is a whole range of opinions. It is sometimes brutally honest. If I wanted to march in lockstep with people who share my opinions, I would find a different site. This particular discussion has been interesting with the range of opinions from the boys were being typical adolescents to they are budding psychopathic serial killers/rapists.
SgtMom, like you I find it a sad commentary on our nation when we have these discussions about giving 14-year-old dimwits what amounts to a life sentence because of a law designed to protect our kids.
@ParatrooperJJ, Please post a link showing the place in the documents that claims oral rape. It’s a stretch to claim oral rape from sitting bare-butted on someone’s face.
SgtMom, it’s not just the “I’m a victim” mentality. It’s moved towards the “you’re a victim” mentality. You can see it in this very thread, where people argue that the teens who had their faces sat upon will be scarred for life and will grow up to inflict this pain onto others. You can see it in the comments on the posts about teenage sex, where people will argue that any 17-year-old who sleeps with a 15-year-old IS taking advantage and it WILL stunt the growth of the 15-year-old in ways he or she (but usually she) is not aware of yet, and even if she thinks she consented, she really didn’t.
I think we’ve moved too far from the “suck it up” era in which you were expected to just “get over” being forcibly raped, to an era in which you’ll get counseling if you so much as hear about something that offends our sensibilities.
Dolly, it sounds like you did the right thing in your mom’s club. For the women to not offer help and support to a member going through cancer and then turn around and offer it to another woman is mean.
However, once you said your piece, why didn’t you just leave? Sounds like a lot of these moms (or at least the ‘mean ones’ who won) are straight-up bitches. Do you need that in your life? If that had been me, I would have spoken up and then said, “If this is how this group is going to be run, I’m out.”
You can only be bullied if you stay in the situation. That’s why school is so hard for so many kids. I was bullied from second through 12th grade, but I didn’t have any choice but to keep going to school. Once I graduated though, I stopped trying to win over my aggressors and found people who genuinely liked me.
There’s no way I would have stayed in that mom’s group and tried to make those mean women change their tunes. I would have called them out on it and bounced.
Library Diva said: “SgtMom, it’s not just the “I’m a victim†mentality. It’s moved towards the “you’re a victim†mentality.”
Well said; I couldn’t agree more. The pendulum has swung so far to the other side that it’s just plain crazy.
“I think we’ve moved too far from the “suck it up†era in which you were expected to just “get over†being forcibly raped, to an era in which you’ll get counseling if you so much as hear about something that offends our sensibilities.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m gonna print this out and frame it.
Excellent point Kiesha. Actually I tried to turn things around because there were also a lot of nice women in the club I was friends with. I tried to take over the leadership from the mean girls by running for President and I lost by only 6 votes out of 50. So it was a pretty close run race. I had a bunch of people pulling for my victory. I thought I could fix the problems and bring everyone closer together for everyone’s benefit. I failed unfortunately. Then I still hung around but was slowly backing out of my involvement more and more. I still tried to do what I could to keep things fair. They eventually just kicked me out. People don’t like being told what they are doing is wrong or unfair. Go figure.
I am glad I am done with it now though. I still keep in contact with the nicer ladies. I used this as an example that bullying can happen even to adults unfortunately.
I don’t think bullies should pay for the rest of their lives IF and thats a big IF, they reform, make amends and apologize. Sometimes with some little jerks it takes a BIG punishment to make that happen. Some kids will say they won’t bully anymore and just start it again even worse the next day. So slaps on the wrist, are not always going to work. So my opinion is they need whatever punishment is big enough to assure they will stop bullying completely and make amends.
When I was bullied as a kid a simple suspension would not have done crap. They would have just got me even worse after that. Community service I doubt would have worked either. Sometimes the parents of the bullies actually condone the bullying and stand behind their bully kids. So yes, sometimes juvenile is needed to really punish them.
SgtMom, it’s not just the “I’m a victim†mentality. It’s moved towards the “your’e a victim” mentality”.
That’s because those trying to convince everyone else they are a basket case are those that make a living off basket cases.
What else are the people with their glut of worthless pychology degrees going to say, besides “Do you want extra large fries with that?”
Here’s one from
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43909060
19-year old senior in high school, falls for freshman who is 15 … and her mom filed sex abuse charges on him.
“forced to move out of his home because he was not allowed to be under the same roof as his 12-year-old sister”
They eventually married and have 4 girls. When they had their first daughter, Rodriguez was not allowed to live in the house because he was on probation, so he lived there illegally, engulfed by paranoia and fear until his probation ended in 2003.
“This is from the trial transcript, and is confirmed by a series of depositions. To my knowledge, this testimony went unchallenged by the defense.
“A. He — [S.R.] was holding me down, so I
couldn’t move. So he kind of pulled
part of his pants down and sat on me,
sat on my face.
Q. Okay. With his bare butt?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. At any point did any other part
of his crotch area touch your face?
A. Yes.
Q. What part?
A. He put his penis in, like there, in my
mouth.
Q. Okay.—
If he actually put his penis in the other guys mouth than I do think they deserve what they got. That is mouth rape,
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/07/andrew_frye_6_murdered_by_his.php#more
Found this article. I have argued on here before how it can be a mistake to leave an older sibling in charge of younger ones. Also the kid was bullied by other kids much like the kids in this story and he took it out on his little brother. This is the harm bullying causes. So sad.
This is very sad, indeed, Dolly. And I guess the 11 year old girl is a school friend who talks about how he changed because of bullying. I wonder what the school did, if anything, about that. I see that the boy was in counselling, but the gun was still in the house, and stored insecurely, just out in the bedroom. And the little boy had even threatened the younger children with violence before–that’s not just leaving an 11 year old in charge of younger children, some 11 year olds can be very responsible. I’ve trained first aid teams starting at 11 years old, so I know that, in the right circumstances, with adult back-up, some can be responsible for more than you would think. But my heart goes out to this mother and her boyfriend. I’m sure they did not think anything bad would happen–many people don’t have a lot of foresight. I wonder if they had any sort of counselling themselves or alternatives to leaving these kids home alone, or had they considered taking the gun with them, or putting the knives away? At any rate, there’s nowhere to put an 11 year old in the juvenile justice system. Juvenile detention is too dangerous, so that’s solitary confinement. Therapeutic group home? Hopefully, or a pediatric psych ward. If he doesn’t have a medical diagnosis yet, he will soon, but whether he’s called mad, bad, or crazy depends on who he sees first, and what the budget is where he lives.
The times they are a changin’. Here in Europe we would have shrugged our shoulders or made a joke about it. You are such stuck up prudes; no wonder; given the country you are all descendents of, Puritan Aglos.
Mike says: “I expect that the majority of people this has happened to wouldn’t “be affected by for the rest of their lives.â€
So you are saying that if some guys held you down and rubbed their anuses and testicles on your mouth and nose, it would soon slip your mind? Not something you would remember with shudders down the road?
‘I remember when Bobby forced me to kiss his ass. What a lark that was! Funny, I can’t even recall whether it was his scrotum, rectum or penis that was pressing on my lips.’
Mike also asked “Forced sodomy isn’t “more sexual†than this?”
Mike, forced oral/anal or oral/genital contact is forced sodomy. It is not anal intercourse, but it is sodomy.
Maybe all of us in my school days were ‘too sensitive’, but such an incident never occurred in my schools during my school days. I dare say that the thought of baring ones genitals to assault someone with them (sure, let’s just say touch someone with them) never occurred to anyone as something to do for amusement (except in a sexual way).
Frank N. said, “So you are saying that if some guys held you down and rubbed their anuses and testicles on your mouth and nose, it would soon slip your mind?”
No, but it sure as hell wouldn’t wreck me for life. Pay attention: what I said was that that the majority of people this has happened to wouldn’t be affected by it for the rest of their lives.
Frank N. said, ‘I remember when Bobby forced me to kiss his ass. What a lark that was! Funny, I can’t even recall whether it was his scrotum, rectum or penis that was pressing on my lips.’
Your personal sexual fantasies are of no interest to me.
I keep seeing people referring to the registry as “punishment”. The Supreme Court ruled that the registry is NOT a form of punishment. If it were deemed to be a form of punishment, then it would be considered unconstitutional.
People think that treating sex offenders as if they are ALL CHILD PREDATORS lurking around the next bush waiting for your child to pass by so that they can assault them is a GREAT idea. if it were 1992, I would say “NOT!!!” Since, it is not 1992 and a ton of research has been done since Megan’s Law went into effect, I am going to say that EMPIRICAL research shows that the public registry has done nothing to reduce sex crimes against children. Why? Maybe because 95% of all sex crimes are committed by someone who is NOT on the registry. Why? Probably because the registry is so diluted with people like these two boys. People who obviously have issues and need help….but are not a danger to society, and pose no threat to our children today or our children children 30 years from now. Those boys will still be on the registry 30 years from now, and they will still pose no threat to our children in the way that the registry says that they do. RIDICULOUS! I want my tax dollars spent on something more important.