Dear Free Range Kids, I am so angry right now I’m shaking. I hope I’m able to make sense. My children are enrolled in “Homeschool Swim” on Friday mornings at our local park district athletic club. Before and after class, they change in the appropriate gender designated changing room. There are family changing rooms, but they are always in use at the time we arrive and leave. There are classes for retirees going on at the same time, so many of the women use the designated “family” changing rooms to take advantage of the private shower & hair dryer..Today, my 10 year old son and 2 other boys were told by an athletic club member (not an employee) that they could not use the locker room without a parent. One of the boys (not mine) was crying because the “well meaning stranger” told them it was dangerous..I went to the front desk to complain, where I was told that the member had already reported it to them. We were told that our children had to use the family changing rooms. When I complained that those were always in use by individuals, I was just repeatedly told that I didn’t know who might be in the locker rooms and it was “too dangerous” for my boy to change there. No mention was made of my daughter who changes in the women’s. .There was another mother there doing an unrelated transaction at the front desk, who then jumped in to say how she didn’t let her kids change in the changing room. They just kept saying how dangerous it was and that the member who complained might have some special knowledge about another member…. .Those of us with kids in “Homeschool Swim” repeatedly asked what they would do about the “family” changing rooms being in use if children couldn’t use the locker rooms. No answer was given, just the repetition of how dangerous the locker rooms are for unattended children. Then as we were walking away, the “well meaning” stranger came up to us and started telling us how dangerous it was. One of the other moms said, ” If you think they’re vulnerable, why don’t you just supervise them instead of kicking them out?” The man then went on about not being “authorized” and that we would have to have an adult employee of the athletic club supervise them (because someone obviously watching you change is so much better than someone sneaking a peek, I guess). .When we did not agree with him, he then threatened to report us to child services for neglect claiming to be a mandated reporter. So, now I’m waiting for someone from the athletic club to call me back to find out if my kids can use the locker room and if not, how we can ensure that only families use the family changing room. And my son and daughter (she’s 8 ) will not change in front of each other, so we need 2 changing rooms. Or maybe my son can change alone in the family changing room while I go with my daughter to the women’s. I don’t know how that’s safer, given that he’d be in a small private room so if one of those crazed sex maniacs that are lurking around every corner pushed his way in there would be no one to protect him.
Lenore here: This is a panic. You can recognize it, because no facts back up any assertion of “It’s too dangerous!” only fear. Fight these rules! And wish me luck — I am running off to meet with someone who can help us write a legalistic sounding Free-Range Kids Bill of Rights! – L
UPDATE: My bad. This was not a Y. It was a local park district.
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It’s no fun to change at the YMCA.
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We should all be born fully clothed and never get undressed, ever. That’s the only solution.
What is the athletic club doing about the fact that dangerous predators are members making use of its facilities?
Why aren’t they arresting the child molesters brazenly making use of the club pool and locker room? It is unconscionable that they would continue to operate their facility without taking drastic action in the face of such dangers.
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Oh, they have no specific information about risks other than “adult men naked in a changing room”? Well then.
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But seriously, if it’s too risky allow kids unsupervised in the changing room, it’s too risky to participate at all and all children’s programming should be canceled.
I believe my Y has 2 sets of locker rooms and kids are excluded from one. But I beelieve it was because for adults w/o kids with them, it’s a more relaxing locker room and it keeps the big camp groups out.
Then again, our family locker rooms are large (not private) and there’s no requirement for a parent to go in.
Anyway — that all sounds awful and a call to the branch manager seems to be in order.
What non-sense.
I agree with JB. If the park district locker rooms are havens for sexual assault or other violence, then the “mandated reporter” has a responsibility to close the locker-rooms until the safety of the patrons can be ensured. Frankly, he should be reprimanded for knowingly allowing such violence to happen under his watch in his facility. I would lodge a complaint with the park district and let them know that an employee knows that the locker rooms are unsafe for patrons and does nothing about it! [/mild sarcasm or maybe not]
One of our local park buildings has a rule that no child over age six is allowed in the bathroom of the opposite sex.
I also think it should be clear if this is a YMCA (headline) or a “local park district athletic club”. I know the YMCA has had some strange policies discussed here, but if this isn’t theirs, it doesn’t seem fair to have them called out in the headline.
So, the YMCA is saying that they allow pedophiles to run rampant in their building? They’re really shooting themselves in the foot here.
I can one-up the craziness here. Our local Y had (has? – I haven’t been there in ages) locker rooms that actually changed designation based on the daily schedule! Sometimes they were women’s, or family, or girls under x age… You had to carefully check the rotated signs every time. – Of course, half of these little children they’re trying to protect can’t read yet.
Here is what should happen: instead of getting in a heated debate with these obviously delusional people, the boy should simply go into the men’s locker room (where he belongs), and see what happens. Honestly, what’s the worse thing that could happen? If someone threatened to call CPS, I would calmly explain that it isn’t right to treat my son like he is a two year old, and he is old and mature enough to use the regular men’s room, rather than being forced to be uncomfortable in the family room. I would tell the manager that I will take my children elsewhere for swimming programs. If anything, they will come to their senses and realize they could be loosing a lot of business for families who find the locker room rules completely ridiculous. It seems to me like part of it also is they don’t want a bunch of “annoying” kids littering the locker room, so they made a rule to keep kids out of the locker room altogether (which I can partially understand), but it isn’t right at all to force children as old as ten to use family changing rooms. I feel bad for the 10-12 year olds (or however old the rule applies to) who probably feel humiliated. Not even allowed to change in their own sex changing room.
Practical suggestion here. Make friends with one of the regular retirees, ask him to look out for the boys, especially from meddling park district employees. Then proceed to ignore the “rule”.
The community fitness center in my hometown got swept up in the same hysteria a couple years ago, with busybody community members being terrified that boys would surely be sexually assaulted in the men’s locker room. The admin agreed these people were being ridiculous, but the idea had already spread like wildfire amongst a decent number of parents, to the point where the city administration (since the facility is run through the city’s Parks and Recreation department) told the facility administration they needed to change policy to prohibit anyone under 16 in the men’s locker room (but not the women’s, naturally, because no woman has ever sexually assaulted someone, right?). However, I give them credit because they did provide a practical solution when the city forced them to in that they designated all family changing rooms are only to be used by families or young men who can’t use the main men’s locker room, a policy that is enforced by staff who are pretty relentless in shooing away those who aren’t supposed to use them, leaving them open for families and young men. Additionally, they have several single-occupancy restrooms/changing rooms, which helps cut down on individual people who want a changing space to themselves using the family restrooms, and there is also an unofficial policy permitting families to use the single-occupancy spaces as well, as they are quite large, larger than most public family bathrooms that I’ve seen. No, the policy shouldn’t be necessary to begin with, but kudos to the facility for not taking action until they were forced to by higher-ups and for providing spaces for the young men for whom the men’s locker room is now off-limits (though, to be honest, they don’t actually enforce that policy either: apparently the sign on the door, which is ignored by most of the teenagers, was enough to quell the panickers).
Looked up the general rules of my own local YMCA. Apparently kids 8 and over are allowed unsupervised in the facilities, yet ages 19 and over only are allowed in the men’s locker room. How does this even make sense? Isn’t there a just the same chance that an EIGHTEEN year old adult male could commit rape as much as a nineteen year old or over one could to a minor?
Dare them to call this in as abuse. Because this sort of crap needs to be called out, and the people perpetuating this stuff need to be shamed into using the 3.5 pounds of gray matter located between their ears.
@LA “yet ages 19 and over only are allowed in the men’s locker room”
I could be wrong, but I don’t think this is an abuse thing…I think they don’t want the adults to have to deal with scads of kids (day camp, after school, swim teams) descending on the locker room en masse.
Our YMCA is suburban with a large membership, large workout and class facilities, and also a large contingent of day campers year–round due to year-round school calendars (who swim every day), plus a big youth swim team.
It’s nice that as an adult you have a locker room that doesn’t have dozens of kids running thru when you are there pre or post workout. There is a separate locker room for kids/families/whoever wants to use it.
>>Looked up the general rules of my own local YMCA. Apparently kids 8 and over are allowed unsupervised in the facilities, yet ages 19 and over only are allowed in the men’s locker room. How does this even make sense? Isn’t there a just the same chance that an EIGHTEEN year old adult male could commit rape as much as a nineteen year old or over one could to a minor?<<
My YMCA set the cut-off age for the adult change rooms at sixteen, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember–long before they built the family and special needs change room. However, I "promoted" myself to the women's change room at fourteen, because A) The family change room had yet to be built, and there were always little boys gawking at me in the girls' change room, especially on weekend mornings, and B) All the other girls in my Bronze Cross class used the women's change room, so eventually, I joined them. Even now, the age cut-off isn't strictly enforced, and honestly, I don't think it's a problem, because it's hard to tell the difference between a fourteen-or-fifteen-year-old, and a sixteen-year-old, in terms of either appearance or maturity. Also, when you think about it, sixteen is a rather random age. Yes, it's the age when one can get their G1 license and begin learning to drive, and it's the age of consent in some places, and I think it's the age where you get a photo health card here in Ontario, but those are all milestones set by a third party–in this case, the government. In the real sense, sixteen years old is halfway through high school, and most people are either finishing or finished with puberty by then. I think "high school age" would be a better cut-off for the adult change rooms. Yes, it'd mean that there'd be some chance of high school kids running into their teachers in the change rooms, but by setting the age at sixteen, there's a chance of it happening then, so there's no reason to delay the inevitable.
To be more technical:
This is an example of “Security response inappropriate to stated threat” which suggests that either (a) the security response is CYA BS or (b) there is another unstated motivation for imposing it.
Anytime someone’s justification for doing something doesn’t match up with what they are doing, there’s something shady behind it.
“If someone threatened to call CPS, I would calmly explain that it isn’t right to treat my son like he is a two year old, and he is old and mature enough to use the regular men’s room”
Sadly this won’t work since you people you are calmly explaining things to are already convinced that your kids are in danger. So you end up with the fear of a CPS visit and then all the associate trauma.
It’s like CPS is used like a sledgehammer over people, its stressful to deal with the faceless government agency, and you can’t easily fight them either. This is a threat we should remove.
What the hell?
Our YMCA has multiple signs up all over the place stating that children over the age of 6 must use the correct changing room and are not allowed in the other changing room.
They have a family changing room but like the woman in this story, if we waited for it to be free, we’d use half our swim time waiting to dress then another half hour afterward waiting to undress.
This week I received an e-mail from the group that runs my daughters swimming classes outlining the policy that children 7 and up are to use the correct gender change rooms. And if the parent doesn’t match that gender then they will see their child in the pool. There are no family change rooms at our pool, although there are some privacy screens if someone wishes to use one.
” When I complained that those were always in use by individuals, I was just repeatedly told that I didn’t know who might be in the locker rooms and it was “too dangerous†for my boy to change there.”
I would demand to know the safety of this dangerous locker room. What are they saying about their members and what is being done (hopefully with the police) to address this public safety concern?
This information should be shared with all parents and children who use this location. Call your local newspaper.
This is a Public Relations NIGHTMARE.
They should apologize for doing this to your family. The threat of CPS and mandatory reporting is so over the top obnoxious. If they don’t, bring in the “DANGER LURKING AT THE LOCAL Y” media circus on them. Kids need somewhere to change. If the Y doesn’t enforce Family Only Changing rooms, they can’t enforce No Kids unattended in locker rooms. Why are we bringing back segregated dressing rooms?
This is the insurance and legal industry at work, people. The Y, for better or for worse, was probably advised to do this to avoid any liability issues.
Okay, I can understand that they want to keep large groups of kids out of the adult locker rooms, but all it does is clog up the family changing rooms even more, especially for the real families (mothers with toddlers that need to be changed). They might as well just have 5 separate changing rooms instead of one changing room for all the kids to use, combining the sexes (which sounds even worse). And we’re talking teenagers (boys and girls) using the same changing room in some cases, instead of using the men’s/woman’s designated rooms.
“providing spaces for the young men for whom the men’s locker room is now off-limits”
Off-limits to “young men”. Anyone remember what the YM stood for in YMCA?
Sigh.
Can we at least get clarification if this was actually at a YMCA or, as the author wrote: “local park district athletic club”.
When I was a kid there was a Saturday program for boys at the local YMCA. We would do sports, arts & crafts, watch a movie, etc. Often we would swim in the pool and we’d always change in the locker room with adult men. Nothing ever happened. This country is ridiculous with the fear it concocts in its collective mind and projects onto the rest of the world. We see danger everywhere…in our homes, outside of our homes, on the next block, in the next state, in other countries…and, in the end, we usually wind up being the ones who are doing the most harm whether it’s in coddling our children or drone striking other civilians. All in the name of keeping us safe.
Well, about two years ago, I had posted on this site about our local YMCA having not two, but FIVE locker rooms including a men’s locker room, a women’s locker room, a boy’s locker room, a girl’s locker room AND a family room. A pure waste of space in my opinion. Then they had a big bold sign posted above the men’s locker room that read, “No one under 18 permitted in the men’s locker room”. Most people on this site concluded that the reason the Y enforced this rule was because most adults don’t want to put up with a bunch of unruly kids in the locker room. Well, I adamantly disagreed as I felt the reason was because of pedophilia hysteria and the assumption that a whole bunch of perverts would be snapping cell phone pics of nude young boys.
Therein lies the reason for all this modern day nonsense. The “worst-first thinkers” would argue the modern day cyber age as the reason we absolutely cannot allow children in the adult dressing room anymore. They’d be 100% certain that a nude photo of your child would be all over the internet if he were allowed to undress within the men’s locker room.
As far as I’m concerned, this is a presumptuous fear. People are assuming that the number of pedophiles in our culture outnumbers men who have sexual interest in other men. This I am certain is statistically false. So is there an epidemic of men sneaking cell phone pics of other men in locker rooms? I highly doubt it. If they are so concerned with people snapping cell phone pics of kids in dressing rooms, why not have a more reasonable rule that says, “Cell phone use prohibited in all dressing rooms”? This would protect not only the privacy of kids, but of adults as well.
BUT, taking the worst case scenario, supposing some pervert does snap a pic of my 10-year-old son? I highly doubt it’s gonna be all over the internet because if it was, the person posting it would be caught fairly fast and be prosecuted for child pornography (IP addresses can easily be traced) and that would actually be a good thing. If it were posted at all, it would most likely go to a private pay site where nobody I know or my kid knows would ever see the picture. Now I’m not saying this would be an acceptable outcome, I’m just saying the POSSIBLE consequences to my kid using the men’s dressing room are not as crushing to him as most people would assume, if at all.
I have been falsely accused of molesting boys and men.
In 1979, when I lived in Vancouver’s West End(a single square mile) boys and men alike would call me a fag-because of the way I walked and talked.(At the local community centre boys would call me a “fag” for no good reason.
Also, two of my male racquetball partners suspected me of being “gay.” They would not let me shower with them.
In 1991, I was sitting across from three 1`1-year old boys-on a bus. One boy called me a “fag.” The bus driver heard that. He kicked all 3 boys off the bus.
We have a problem in this area with transgendered men and women using the shower of their choice. So…..little girls showering with men. What could go wrong? Radio station KTTH has been really the only coverage of this idiocy. Seattle area YMCA, Pierce and Kitsap county.
>>Okay, I can understand that they want to keep large groups of kids out of the adult locker rooms, but all it does is clog up the family changing rooms even more, especially for the real families (mothers with toddlers that need to be changed). They might as well just have 5 separate changing rooms instead of one changing room for all the kids to use, combining the sexes (which sounds even worse). And we’re talking teenagers (boys and girls) using the same changing room in some cases, instead of using the men’s/woman’s designated rooms.<<
My YMCA actually has SEVEN different change rooms: Men, Women, Boys, Girls, Men's Membership Plus, Women's Membership Plus, and Family/Special Needs. The rule used to be that anyone aged six and up had to use the correct gender change room, but now it's three and up for either the correct gender change room, or the family room. Anyway, the set-up sounds complicated, but it means that men and women get to enjoy an adult-only atmosphere in their change rooms, parents wrangling small children don't have to bother anyone, people who want certain luxury features (whirlpool, steam room, towel service, smaller, quieter cardio area) can pay extra for those, and anyone who can't negotiate a locker room alone for whatever reason, can still use the YMCA, even if they come with an opposite-gender caregiver. That's the only reason for this set-up; there's never been any concern over pedophiles lurking in the change rooms. They're overprotective in a lot of other areas, but they don't specifically ban childless adults from going into the children's change room that matches their own gender. I suppose this makes it possible for men to prey on little boys, but it doesn't happen.
So you have complaints that boys over 6 can’t use the woman’s locker room, and now kids can’t use the mens either. Poor things. and Poor men. And for those who want to change w/o a bunch of little camp kids running around, get over it. In Europe everyone changes together I believe, as they don’t get caught up that nudity always equals sex.
@John — I spent my college years working at a Y and has been and adult/family member for ~15 years, I will say that having the day campers (who are year round here) and swim teams separate from the adults is not a waste of space. Now that my kids are grown, I quite enjoy the (very) nice locker room that is specific to adults. It’s one thing to share a locker room with a handful of kids or a parents with kids, but it’s another thing entirely to have 30-40 kids coming in at the same time as they change from camp clothes to swim suits and back.
Our Y does not offer the “Plus” membership that is mentioned above, but the existence of such a feature indicates that some adults DO enjoy the ‘segregation’ of ages.
That is just dumb. I let my son who is 8 go into public restroom all the time. How is this different. They usually have stalls or curtains don’t they? There are plenty of people around. Just dumb.
I am the letter writer of this story. It was our local park district, not the YMCA. When I finally got to speak to management (this occurred on a Friday before a holiday break), I was told that older children are encouraged to use the regular locker rooms. Family changing rooms are for parents with opposite gender children who need help changing or parents with multiple small children who need to corral them into a small room so none run off. They also mentioned they have some special needs adults who use the family changing rooms with a parent or caretaker, so they don’t enforce an age restriction on the family rooms. They do have adult only changing rooms that are attached to an “adult only” sauna area. I was also told that there had never been an episode of “inappropriate behavior of a sexual nature” in the locker rooms. The few times there was a complaint, it turned out to be a non-issue much like this one — someone claimed a person might be doing something, but it turned out the person wasn’t doing anything wrong.
They tracked down the man who complained and informed him he was not to bother the children. Apparently he had complained before, but management had told him they wouldn’t stop kids from using the locker room, so he decided to kick them out himself. The front desk staff was re-trained. I think it was a matter of this man being loud and intimidating toward them, so they didn’t stand up to him that day.
My son still uses the locker room. His friend, however, was so frightened by this man and his proclamations of possible doom that he will only change in the family room and asks his mom to guard the door while he’s there. That damage was done by the “well meaning” stranger himself.
Oh good grief. Our culture wants it both ways! It’s dangerous for a 10-year-old to be alone in the men’s locker room! It’s dangerous for a 10-year-old potential pervert to come into the ladies’ locker room!
Our rec center pool has a RULE that children under 6 aren’t allowed in the ladies room. At the same, no children are allowed unattended.
The other day, I took my 8-year-old to a library Lego club. Because they were using a different room, I left briefly to go inform my husband and other children of our whereabouts. I was not gone 15 seconds before the children’s librarian approached me, holding my 8-year-old’s hand, and admonished me for failure to helicopter parent her. And yet that same library offers drop-off programs for her age group. So she’s in serious danger in the Lego Club but perfectly safe being alone in the book club. Apparently would-be pedophiles and kidnappers prefer Legos to the Ramona Quimby series. (Forehead slap!)
Yesterday, I sent her into the library, alone while I waited in the parking lot, to check for something in the lost and found. The librarian’s first question to her was, “And where is your mother?” Perhaps they lean on the helicopter-parenting side, after all.
Can any of these inconsistencies give us a clue about how arbitrarily and irrationally our culture approaches risk assessment?
Ugh. Why is there always a busy body around to make a huge point of “anything could happen” and “you just aren’t safe these days.”
You know, I might complain to the athletic club manager that their facilities are not “safe” – and if they are not going to do something about it, I would go over their heads. It is just insane… And, regarding the other mother at the reception desk, she should mind her own business. It is not her job, even if she “meant well”, to dictate others what is safe and what is not, and how parents should bring up their children.
JS, I half wonder if you and I live in the same town!
If your rec center is anything like ours, there’s too long of a line for those family changing rooms to bother using them. Sometimes I skirt around the problem by using a time-honored tactic at European beaches, holding up a towel while my younger kids change in public. I’m sure that both the perverts and rec center management will all over that one, too. (Insert tongue in cheek).
(((PLEASE READ AND RESPOND!))) I’m not sure how to post anywhere but in a comment on this site, so I’m giving my query in a comment. I’m a 14-year-old American male, and, until early November, had a father who led a free-range parenting style. He enjoyed this site a lot and talked about the things he had learned here. However, on November 11, I got into trouble with the police regarding an inappropriate statement I had made about my school online. Rather than allowing this to be another experience in my ascent to maturity, and acknowledging the fact that I had learned my lesson about Internet responsibility, my father took this as an opportunity to reject everything about kid’s rights from this site and go all “Big Brother” on me. From then on, he has put “parental settings” on my computer that allow him to manage and view every click of my mouse, and completely restricting my access to video games (I don’t play the mindless shooter ones — I prefer intellectual roleplayers) as well as making me have meetings with him every day in which we discuss my schoolwork and grades. (I have never had any problem academically, so the necessity of this remains unknown.) Whenever I step out of line, repercussions such as blocking websites I enjoy occur. He hides this obvious power grab under the guise of that “it bothers him that I don’t read as much as I used to.” The same can be said for my other two siblings, neither of which are suffering from the same restrictions. I had assumed for the last three months that when life was back to normal, he would return to his old ways of free-range parenting. I was driven to write this comment by him explicitly stating this morning that, after the ordeal with the police is over, he would not be removing the restrictions or ending the useless meetings, as well as the fact that last night he announced a “New Deal”-style plan to up the amount of chores and work for the whole family. Please, please, PLEASE respond with advice, links, stories, ANYTHING that could help stop this authoritarian change!
“They just kept saying how dangerous it was and that the member who complained might have some special knowledge about another member….”
“When we did not agree with him, he then threatened to report us to child services for neglect claiming to be a mandated reporter.”
Wait, so the person who complained is claiming that he is a mandated reporter, and the athletic club is suggesting that he has “special knowledge” about another member… Why isn’t he reporting that other member instead of reporting YOU?? If he knows, or believes, the athletic club locker room to be a place that is unsafe for children, he needs to be reporting the PROBLEM, not reporting the possible victims for daring to be there!!
Reading about these all-too-common scenarios is starting to give me a sensation like I have a mouthful of cat fur.
Good luck Lenore. You’ll need it, and we need you and your legalistic-sounding friend.
James, I don’t know what kind of comment you made that got you into trouble with the police, so I don’t know if their involvement is reasonable, but it sounds to me like you’ve lost your father’s trust. You say he isn’t restricting your siblings this way, which makes me think this isn’t about giving up his beliefs, but about YOU.
Trust is absolutely essential to free range parenting. And once trust is broken, it can be difficult to rebuild. It’s going to take more work to rebuild what you’ve lost than it took to earn it in the first place.
Have you accepted your role in breaking your father’s trust, or have you kicked back against the restrictions that resulted from it? The more you insist that you didn’t deserve to lose his trust, the more he’s going to feel like you don’t get it, which will make him feel like you can’t be trusted not to do it again. So first you need to show him (not tell him) that you understand. From there, you need to figure out what it’s going to take to get him to trust you again. That’s the only way you will regain your freedom.
“Please, please, PLEASE respond with advice, links, stories, ANYTHING that could help stop this authoritarian change!”
Turn 18.
Hey James/his dad: I feel you should talk it out, father-son.
The Y we belong to has the following locker rooms: women’s over 18 (no kids under 18 allowed, period), men’s over 18 (same thing), boys under 18 (in which a male parent or companion is also allowed in the presence of a kid who might need help), under 18 girls, and four family rooms, which are each a separate room with shower, toilet and sink. My son, now 11, has been using the boys room alone for several years. The kids don’t like to change in front of each other and my son doesn’t like to change in front of me either. I think privacy is a much bigger concern than possible predators.
The other gym we frequent doesn’t have all those bathrooms, just men and women. He uses the men’s room and other than some laughing about a hairy man with “a monkey penis,” there have been no issues.
@SanityAnyone — the people that have responded with their “Adults Only” locker rooms are not reporting anything over-restrictive in the name of kid safety. If they were intended to protect children, they’d be “Children under Age X with Parent/Guardian Only”. There’s a big difference. The Adult only locker rooms are for the adults benefit, not the kids protection.
@James — good luck to you. It’s really impossible for us, as strangers, to council you. Clearly you did something very concerning (and that involved police). It would unfair to your Dad to try to make a suggestion when he is clearly better suited to doing so. Actions have consequences. It sounds like you think they are disproportionate to the offense, but it’s impossible for strangers to know. I will say that your comment: “allowing this to be another experience in my ascent to maturity” implies that you feel it’s “another experience” while your parents may feel that it’s vastly different. There could be legal and financial risks that they need more time to process and consider.
I can tell you from experience — when a child does something that you didn’t feel was even in the realm of the possible, it’s a difficult environment to navigate.
@Michelle, great advice to James! I’m with you 100%
@LGB–Did you mean that the library wants adults to actually stay at Lego Club with their kids, or just in the library? Our public library has several children’s activities (including Lego Club), but the rule there is just that parents of kids under the age of ten have to stay in the library while the child is participating in the activity. I still think this rule is too much, because my parents started leaving me alone in the library when I was about eight, and I was perfectly fine and safe–the only rules were not to bother other people, and not to leave the building. So, I picked out my books, I sat and read, and I signed out my books when whichever parent came back to get me. Later on, when I was about twelve or thirteen, I started actually going to the library by myself. I would have been allowed to go there alone sooner, but the library was a fair distance from my house, and twelve is when I learned to take public transit. But, back to my main point–the Lego Club, and the free tutoring, and a lot of other kids’ activities, are pitched as “after school activities,” but they still have the “must be accompanied by an adult” rule, and they’re usually offered around 5 p.m., so it’s not right after school, so kids can’t go there straight from school, but it’s still too early for most parents to get there from work. Some families manage to get their kids there, but it seems like a really inconvenient and ill-conceived set-up. The craziest thing is, the library doesn’t seem to have a minimum age for kids to just go and use the library unsupervised, but the structured programs are a different story–so, it’s “not safe” for a nine-year-old to be in the Lego Club, supervised and directed by an adult, without a parent or caregiver somewhere in the library, but it’s perfectly safe for that same nine-year-old to browse the stacks alone.
My own (just turned) 11yo son would probably have told that guy to kiss off all on his own. He’s been using the men’s locker room at the pool alone since he was 5. I was told by him in no uncertain terms that he was not a girl and was NOT going to use the women’s locker room.
Some people just don’t know when to back off. I think I would tell them that if there aren’t going to be enough family rooms available, then they need to eliminate the senior program at that time to “protect the children”. In their own weird judgment, those are the only two options.
@JS — thanks for the update. Nice to know that it’s a misguided worry wart and that the club is not going to make their patrons jumps thru hoops for something that it’s pretty simple.
Sorry to hear about the friend who got scared by the mean guy. Hopefully he’ll bounce back quickly.
Hey James’ Dad – Any 14yo who appropriately uses the terms “ascent to maturity”, repercussions, etc. knows he did something stupid. Give him a break and realize he learned his lesson.
From a mom of a 14yo.
While I agree with the angry woman who wrote this, as a male I always avoid any situation remotely like the one she described. I can understand why men are terrified of being in that room with naked children. Hell, there have been parents arrested for bathing with their children (mothers, not fathers as most of us long ago realized that was considered sexual abuse by the American Taliban).
Men are learning. Stay away from children. Even when they are clothed. If the Taliban get their way, we’ll have to add the word “your,” between the words “from” and “children.”
Just like the Victorians. These days, conservative and liberal are terms that mean “religious nut” in the United States.
Another possible take on the situation–the guy who claimed it was “dangerous” for J.S.’ son to use the men’s locker room alone because of all the pedophiles, IS a pedophile, and he’s begging and pleading with the other members of the athletic club, to help him to avoid the temptation to molest random little boys in the athletic club locker room.
I live in a town of 10,000 with a city-run family fitness center. It has 5,000 members. Two locker rooms with showers (men & women) with one in the center for “families”. The family one is mostly used by litttle ones that need the help of the opposite gender parent otherwise it’s boys on one side girls on the other. No problems. They even play dodgeball and other dangerous sports in the after school programs. Most kids get to the center on their own (walk or bike) or parents drop them off with only a few parents staying around. What a privilege it is to live in a sane community.
I remember in the 1950’s when I was about 8, I took Saturday swim lessons at the YMCA in Omaha. Since most people going to the Y back then had little extra money the boys swim lessons took place in the nude because most didn’t own a bathing suit. Can’t recall any problems. I have no idea how the girls did.
Quote:
“It’s one thing to share a locker room with a handful of kids or a parents with kids, but it’s another thing entirely to have 30-40 kids coming in at the same time as they change from camp clothes to swim suits and back.”
@E – That may be true BUT I don’t believe that is the primary reason they have so many locker rooms at the Y. In fact, if it weren’t for our pedophilia paranoia here in the United States, I don’t believe YMCAs would have any more than two locker rooms (+ maybe a family room). They’d just be looked on as more money and excessive space.
Good thing I had the sense to have only daughters. 😛
In our town, we aren’t quite that nuts (at least not yet). Also, kids over 3 are not allowed in the opposite gender locker room, although some moms break this rule.
I think it’s kind of perverted the way we spend half of the day talking about how we need to keep growing kids under our watchful eye – especially when they’re naked – and then we spend the other half of the day talking about their rights to body integrity or whatever you want to call it.
If it’s so unsafe for kids to be in the men’s room, when does it suddenly become safe? At what age does a child become less of a sexual target? I’m pretty sure it goes the other way. The number of true pedophiles is extremely small compared to the number of people who will take advantage of a teen or young adult. So … maybe they should ban locker rooms all together?
I would have demanded the “mandated reporter’s” name, occupation,band place of employment. Some professions have a mandate but only as a part of their job. A teacher is not required to report outside of school or school activities. Secondly, what is there to report? A child changing their own clothes? The guy is a jerk – pure and simple. Not only that he enjoys being a bully. Either of my kids would have walked up to management, pointed at the man, and told them that he was trying to make them do things they didn’t want to do. Even at five they were that mean and independent.
I think it’s time to demand a refund of any and all fees from the management for maintaining and unsafe environment. I would report them to the BBB for the same thing. In fact, I think I would go to the city government as well as the local news and tell them that you were told that it was unsafe for children at whatever gym you were using. Pediphiles aren’t restricted to locker rooms.
Check state law. In some states this would be complete and utter BS.
Ok…I think there is a much bigger problem here than boys changing in the men’s room.
…” I was just repeatedly told that I didn’t know who might be in the locker rooms and it was “too dangerous†for my boy to change there.”
To me that says, “well, we allow all sorts of people here including pedophiles and child abusers. But we don’t know when they’re here so better not take the chance”. So this local Y MAKES a dangerous environment for children?? They are also alleging that the men, ANY men in the Y (including the old guy) could and can be a predator? And that old man, is basically implicating himself to be a potential predator. If it’s an issue with boys, it definitely is an issue with ANY child that steps foot in that “Y”. If there are possible predators in the men’s changing room 1. who’s to prevent them from going into the women’s or family changing room? 2. Plenty of predator women in prison too. So there’s also a possibility that any women in the “Y” can be potential predator. They can’t pick and choose who to stereotype. 😉
Sheeple are so ridiculously stupid.
To the letter writer…It’s not against the law, nor is it even against the Y’s policies. Ignore them. Tell the boys to change in the men’s room. If they are harassed by any of the men or staff, call the cops. Say the men are trying to intimidate the boys, and the staff is allowing it. Nip it in the butt before it gets to be a norm. Give them all a virtual slap in the face back to reality. 😉
@K: “… boys under 18 (in which a male parent or companion is also allowed in the presence of a kid who might need help), under 18 girls…”
The part in parenthesis, does it also apply to the girls under 18, or just the boys under 18?
@John — we’ll just have to disagree. They could easily make the locker room rule “no children under age X without a parent”, to address that kind of concern.
People join the Y for lots of reasons, but if a family (like us originally) joined it to take advantage of their youth programs and day camp, we also started to use it as a Gym for the adults. Most stand alone gyms for adults do not have 30-40 kids tromping thru on their way to/from the pool.
I believe that my YMCA offers this so that they compete with gyms that offer nice locker rooms for people who go to the gym before/during/work and allow them to avoid a huge mass of kids while doing so.
But I guess we’ll never really know.
@Emily The librarian wanted me physically in that room with my daughter. Being 8 and mature for her age, my poor kid was flushing with humiliation to have a grown-up hold her hand and bring her back to Mommy.
I should add that at this same Lego Club, There was an ages 2-5 section with Duplos and a section for older kids with smaller Legos. I overheard this same children’s librarian talking to another mother. The mom had a child who was one month away from his fifth birthday and, understandably, wanted to play with the big kid Legos. The librarian replied, “I’m sorry. But he still can’t play there until he’s officially 5 due to choking hazards.” A posted sign reiterated that same rule.
Choking hazards. Because four-year-olds routinely stuff their mouths full of bricks and minifigs, a habit that–poof!–disappears on one’s fifth birthday.
Part of it is the helicopter culture, and another part may be the litigiphobic culture. Either way, as parents, we’ve got to unite against it.
I would call their bluff and send my kid into the locker room anyway.
“This is the insurance and legal industry at work, people. The Y, for better or for worse, was probably advised to do this to avoid any liability issues.”
Nope. Too easy an excuse, If that were true, then Ys everywhere would have this policy.
But my local Y is sane, and does not.
Our Y similarly has five areas: men, women (no one under 18 in either adult changing room, boys and girls, and family.
Repeatedly, my husband would be in the boys (where adults are allowed), using that changing room with our three sons – and one or another helicopter mom would barge in to move their boys along. Not one of these strange women, that barged into an opposite sex changing room, ever apologized for invading my sons’ or husband’s (!) privacy.
I had to complain to the management, which didn’t stop them, but the new sign indicating that women shouldn’t enter did dissuade some(!) of them.
Unbelievable!
They missed the real dangers…slippery wet floors and scalding showers. Had to stop swim lessons for my son with special needs because there were no mixed gender locker room options.
>>@Emily The librarian wanted me physically in that room with my daughter. Being 8 and mature for her age, my poor kid was flushing with humiliation to have a grown-up hold her hand and bring her back to Mommy.
I should add that at this same Lego Club, There was an ages 2-5 section with Duplos and a section for older kids with smaller Legos. I overheard this same children’s librarian talking to another mother. The mom had a child who was one month away from his fifth birthday and, understandably, wanted to play with the big kid Legos. The librarian replied, “I’m sorry. But he still can’t play there until he’s officially 5 due to choking hazards.†A posted sign reiterated that same rule.
Choking hazards. Because four-year-olds routinely stuff their mouths full of bricks and minifigs, a habit that–poof!–disappears on one’s fifth birthday.
Part of it is the helicopter culture, and another part may be the litigiphobic culture. Either way, as parents, we’ve got to unite against it.<<
Okay, first off, isn't part of the purpose of children's library programming so that parents can drop their kids off in their program, and look for books in the adult section without kids in tow, since a lot of libraries also mandate that kids under a certain age be supervised by an adult in the library in general? Second, about the Lego versus Duplo scenario, five seems like a rather high minimum age to play with Legos. I know that I outgrew Duplo blocks, and graduated to regular Legos, before I was five–I was probably around four as well. As for the "choking hazard" argument, I don't think that holds much water. According to Wikipedia (which, I know isn't the most accurate source, but we're having a conversation here, not writing a thesis on child development), Sigmund Freud postulates that the "oral fixation" stage in a child's life is "from birth to 21 months." That's three months shy of age two, and two was the library's MINIMUM age to even play with the Duplo blocks, let alone the Legos. I have a friend with a son who turned two in mid-November, and he, predictably, went through an oral-fixation stage, where he put everything in his mouth, but he outgrew that stage long before 21 months, and he seems like a fairly average kid–he's actually a bit behind in speech and language, but he doesn't put non-food items in his mouth anymore, so even he would probably be fine playing with regular Lego blocks. Anyway, back to the scenario at hand, I have to assume that Mr. Four-Almost-Five had played with Legos before, and probably owned a set himself, so I wonder what the library people would have done if he and his mother had brought their own Legos to build with the other kids at the library?
James;
Be a man, take your punishment, and learn from it. Then you may regain some trust, and respect.
Otherwise, you prove you are a child with much to learn.
Good luck.
It is difficult to to do these two things at the same time: protect children from sexual predation when it exists, but also let children be at ease and non-helicoptered.
It would be helpful to know what the actual threat was in the bathroom being discussed at the athletic club. Was a man observed showing his genitals to male children in the locker room? Or something worse?
>>James;
Be a man, take your punishment, and learn from it. Then you may regain some trust, and respect.
Otherwise, you prove you are a child with much to learn.
Good luck.<<
Eric, this isn't a "punishment," because punishments are supposed to have beginnings and ends, and be specific to the wrongdoing at hand. This is just James' dad on a power trip over one mistake that James made, at an age and stage when most kids make mistakes. It'd make sense to, say, restrict Internet access for a set amount of time, and possibly have James apologize to his school for whatever he said, but James' dad is also punishing James for things he didn't even do wrong, by mandating stricter homework supervision when James is already a good student, and announcing a New Deal where ALL family members have to do chores (which doesn't make sense, because the purpose of chores is to keep the house clean and well-maintained, and if that was already happening under the previous chore structure, then it's not necessary to have everyone doing more). Also, trying to get James to read more by blocking websites he likes, isn't going to have the desired effect. Sadly, my answer is similar to yours–I think James' best approach would be to continue under his dad's regime, try not to be bothered by it, and try helping out around the house without being asked (for example, by making dinner for the family), and as for reading more, that's doable, even if it's not a lot each day. After a while, James could then slowly ask for privileges back, one at a time, as he regains his dad's trust.
@Jerry: “We have a problem in this area with transgendered men and women using the shower of their choice. So…..little girls showering with men. What could go wrong? ”
Yeah, I’m sure those “men” dress as women, undergo surgery and risk getting puked out by their family, work, friends and society at large, solely so they can stare at little girls in the locker room… Really?!
>>@Jerry: “We have a problem in this area with transgendered men and women using the shower of their choice. So…..little girls showering with men. What could go wrong? â€
Yeah, I’m sure those “men†dress as women, undergo surgery and risk getting puked out by their family, work, friends and society at large, solely so they can stare at little girls in the locker room… Really?!<<
Agreed. Also, transgender men are men, and transgender women are women, because they identify that way, regardless of whether they're pre-op, post-op, or mid-op (for example, a trans man who's had top surgery, but still has a vulva).
The worst part about this is that it is assuming that all boys are pedophiles-in-training. The mothers are assuming men are pedophiles and therefore their sons will be pedophiles when they are older.
In this situation in particular, though, I would have just skipped over the rule. If he’s a boy, he should be able to use the men’s changing room. Specially if the girls can use the women’s one and, as K said, there is a possibility some random woman might come in and invade my son’s privacy if he uses the boys’ changing room.
Here’s a thought…..teach your kids how to keep themselves safe, the difference between good touching and bad touching, and for heavens sake…how to scream if necessary. I will repeat a story I’ve told before. My 5 yr old daughter told me she was going to the bathroom at the local park. About a minute later she came running back and asked me if I could take her. I asked her why and if she was alright. Her response..”there was a creepy looking guy near the bathrooms so I came to get you instead of going in”. I saw the guy, he wasn’t all that creepy, but her radar was up (the one I taught her to use) and she kept herself safe. Is that so hard to do? I suppose it IS too much to expect from helicopter parents.
My problem is when I am in the women’s locker room. More than once, I have been changing only to encounter a young master who was old enough to comment on the subject of fully developed female breasts and genitalia — and did so! Who’s protecting whom?
>>Here’s a thought…..teach your kids how to keep themselves safe, the difference between good touching and bad touching, and for heavens sake…how to scream if necessary. I will repeat a story I’ve told before. My 5 yr old daughter told me she was going to the bathroom at the local park. About a minute later she came running back and asked me if I could take her. I asked her why and if she was alright. Her response..â€there was a creepy looking guy near the bathrooms so I came to get you instead of going inâ€. I saw the guy, he wasn’t all that creepy, but her radar was up (the one I taught her to use) and she kept herself safe. Is that so hard to do? I suppose it IS too much to expect from helicopter parents.<<
I think people still do that; they just don't take their eyes off their kids long enough for them to actually be able to use what they learned about "good touch/bad touch" and screaming for help if necessary.
I bet if the mom claimed the boy was born a girl and has been “reassigned” as a boy, nobody would give him any more trouble about using the men’s room.
This may not be a story about the Y but that is also the policy for Southcoast Ma YMCA. A boy has to be 16 or older to use the mens locker room, with or without a parent, they must use the family locker room, toddler boys can go in ladies locker rooms with moms as well. But girls can use either locker room, family or womens with or with out a parent. Of course no dads in ladies locker room but that is the only restriction. Which would be fine if the family locker room was the biggest and best designed. In our local YMCAin the Family locker room there are only maybe 5 total stalls, all with showers and toilets. No just changing rooms, or bathrooms. Only 5 for all the kids from 8+ swimming classes that end all at once and that is nor counting the kids coming for next classes. And on most weeks 2+ stalls are broken or lights are our or something renders it unusable. In the mean time there are a dozen showers in ladies and mens locker rooms along with numerous stalls to change and a 5 stall full bathroom.
Just as risky to have 15 year old boys changing with little girls, or unsupervised girls in unlocked ladies locker room. Why is it automaticallyassumed that men are the big risk? Not every stranger is a pedophile.
@Anna– “I bet if the mom claimed the boy was born a girl and has been “reassigned†as a boy, nobody would give him any more trouble about using the men’s room.”
In this case, I think there would have been either equal or more trouble. The idea is that a random man might be interested in children, and has access to boys because he can’t go into the women’s changing room. But if this boy still had ‘girl parts’, then the risk would be even greater because girls are thought to be in more danger than boys and, in this scenario, a man would have access to a boy with girl genitalia.
It also bothers me a lot that only men are the problem, because women seem to be able to go into the boys’ restroom/changing room and no one makes a big deal out of it despite the boys’ privacy being broken, but a man cannot help his daughter to change in the girls’ restroom.
@James,
I have no idea what exactly you did or what the legal repercussions are. Your parents may indeed be dealing with much more than you know….trying to straighten out your future so that you can do what you want to do with it.
The “New Deal.” You need to talk to your father. In a pleasant tone of voice, asking why it is that this is happening. It may have NOTHING to do with what you did. It may have a lot to do with the fact that you and your siblings are growing up and your dad wants you to be able to handle the responsibility of living with others. That means, washing your own clothing, being able to cook meals AND clean up afterwards, keeping the house clean, caring for animals that you or siblings may have wanted….etc. It may be that because you and your siblings are getting older, that your father feels that he (and your mother if she is there) should be doing less for you so that you can do more for yourself.
There are things that my husband does that used to make me mad. Now they irk me as I know he won’t change. And it all has to do with how he was raised, by mom and grandma who did things for him. But you know what….my kids will understand that THEY need to do the things so that their significant others are not made mad by things….they will be considerate. They WILL clear their plates from the table and wash or put them in the dishwasher. They WILL pick their dirty clothes off the floor and wash them, not leaving or expecting someone else to do them. They WILL cook AND clean up after themselves. They WILL know how to clean a house, sweep and use a vacuum. They WILL take out the trash when it is full and not wait for someone else. Because not doing those things when living with a spouse or room mate….is just inconsiderate. They also WILL know how to use a shovel for snow and a lawn mower on the yard….so that they can keep renting the house that they are living in.
So…have that talk with your dad. And know that the New Deal may have little to do with what you did and more to do with what growing up means. And even if it does have to do with what you did, look again at what I wrote and know that in the long run, it means you will have a happier relationship with the person of your dreams. And if you take it in that attitude, even telling your Dad thank you for preparing you for life….he will understand that he is doing a good job and that perhaps he can let you have a little bit of your freedom back in other areas.
I realize this is a tangent, but I am really fed up with these people claiming they are, “Mandated reporters,” and thus, must go about in the world as perpetual busy bodies.
I was a mandated reporter when I was a teacher, and we had very specific training as to what constituted abuse and neglect. We were most certainly not, “Deputized,” to report parents at a local swimming pool who disagreed with us about something!
It seems like so many of these posts feature some local hysteric claiming to have a, “Duty,” to report. Maybe that’s a future post for you, Lenore!
@Meg–I’m technically a “mandated reporter” as a YMCA volunteer (although I’m taking a break from that right now, because I’ve recently gotten involved in community theatre), but I don’t remember ever actually going through the reporting process, because I haven’t worked with kids in a while, and when I did, there was nothing to report, because, guess what? Most people who take their kids to the YMCA are GOOD PARENTS. So, there’s really no sense looking for trouble where there is none.
James,
You are clearly a gifted young man with superior intelligence.
Whatever you wrote scared the daylights out of your dad.
You can’t expect him to go back to how he used to be after the world has shifted beneath him. You Can slowly regain his trust.
Ask him if you can attend a couple of sessions of family therapy together. It will help you to hash things out with a neutral party, and it shouldn’t be overly expensive.
In the meantime, consider doing some offline activities that will help you prove your trustworthiness and give you some more independence-join a club, volunteer, learn a new instrument, and so forth…..
Let’s start calling a spade a spade whenever we discuss, online or face to face, any practices, policies, or outlooks that treat all males over age 12 as dangerous. It’s sexist. Using that word will startle a lot of people. People think “sexist” means mistreating females, in even the tiniest perceived way, and never apply that word to treatment of males. But here we have gross mistreatment of males, on a scale that would send people screaming to the world if it were females.
This is not a recent change — sadly, just one that has been building for awhile. When I was in high-school and college I worked at a town pool in a very small community (about 3500 people). My boss was famous for seeing something on the news and reacting to it — someone drowned at a city pool half way across the country, we would have a staff meeting about needing to pay attention, etc. — not a bad thing really since NOTHING ever happened except teaching kids to swim, giving them lots of attention, bringing in extra food for the hungry ones and finding odd-jobs and errands for the kids that needed a little extra something to do to keep them out of trouble. Most of the kids were dropped or walked/biked to the playground to spend the day on their own and the community knew that if something happened the pool was staffed with teenagers who could help.
Sometime around the early 90’s we were told that we could no longer help the little ones back into their suits when they came out of the bathroom/changing room. We all know how difficult it is to get back into a wet suit — and we truly appreciated that the kids were getting out of the pool to use the bathroom. What’s worse – to have a lifeguard or bath house attendant who you have known all your life discretely pull you aside to fix your wardrobe malfunction and (probably never but it’s possible) accidentally touch you in the process of covering you up? Or to have to humiliatingly walk through the bathhouse and down the length of the pool in front of your friends, classmates and anyone else from the public who was using the outdoor pool. I’m certain that none of the kids thought anything of it, until they were told they should.
@Meg — well said
Our Y has the most sensible arrangement I’ve ever heard of: Men’s locker room (no age limit), women’s locker room (no age limit) and two family changing rooms — one for “male parent” and one for “female parent.” In addition, it’s posted that children over a certain age (don’t remember what it was, since my kids were all older by the time this was all set up) cannot be in the opposite sex locker room. I think it’s either 6 or 8.
Clearly they’re assuming that it’s okay to have boys in locker rooms with men, but if Daddy’s going to change with his young sons/daughters, there’s a place where there won’t be any adult women around, and vice versa. With this arrangement, multiple families can use the family rooms at the same time. And people with kids the same sex as the parent can use the regular locker rooms, since the kids are allowed in there.
There’s also a premium men’s locker room for an additional membership fee — I guess that’s the one where you don’t have to deal with the kids getting ready for swim class, but I think it also has some other amenities as well, like private permanent lockers and other things I don’t know specifically about.
Anybody who thinks women don’t commit child sex abuse should read Beverly A. Ogilvie’s book “Mother-Daughter Incest.” Women are probably more likely to molest their own children, rather than strangers, so “Family” changing rooms are more dangerous if mothers accompany their children.
@Pentamom–Our YMCA just has the one family changing room, but it can be used by multiple families at the same time as well. It has large, comprehensive shower/changing/bathroom stalls (all three in one), and there’s a sign up advising people to remain covered outside of the stalls, because it’s a co-ed space.
Unfortunately, the park staff were probably being more assertive in enforcing this rule because of a recent incident that happened here in Pasadena, where a boy was allegedly molested by a stranger in the locker room of a public swim center.
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/general-news/20150521/man-accused-of-molesting-boy-at-pasadenas-rose-bowl-aquatics-center
Kid should change in the lobby next to the front desk.
I know it’s embarrassing but he wouldn’t have to do it more than once.
My GAWD, this insanity is exhausting! Lenore, how do you ever keep on it??!! Good for you, for going after a Free Range Bill of Rights!
My GAWD, this insanity is exhausting! Lenore, how do you ever keep on it??!!
Good for you, for going after a Free Range Bill of Rights!
It was a public facility? If girls are allowed unsupervised in the women’s changing room, and boys are not allowed in the men’s, and are too old to be allowed in the women’s, there is a good case there for suing for violation of equal protection and access to facilities. If someone behaves improperly, it is that person who should be banned from the communal locker room, not the boys.
“Unfortunately, the park staff were probably being more assertive in enforcing this rule because of a recent incident ”
Anecdotes are not data.
Data are not statistics.
Statistics are not intel.
Yet with emotion priming science (Y1K) the logic is reversed.
My only sanity check against things like this are international comparisons. Because I live abroad. What surprises me though is that a fair number of Americans travel abroad and hopefully observe how other countries manage the same “challenges”, yet it does not seem to make too much of a dent in seemingly unique behaviors of the Greatest Country. Must be part of the American exceptionalism.
What bothers me is the claim that the man is mandated reporter. Is a mandated reporter always “On duty” and must report any parent/child interaction he/she sees to the authorities or does that only apply in the context of his/her occupation?
I should have said “a parent/child interaction he/she disagrees with.
” Is a mandated reporter always “On duty†and must report any parent/child interaction he/she sees to the authorities or does that only apply in the context of his/her occupation?”
It depends. Not all mandatory reporter laws are alike.
(The idea of a mandatory reporter law is this: You may have a situation where an organization has a reason to suppress reports of child abuse, putting an employee in a hard place… defend the interests of the child, or defend the interests of his or her employer? “Mandatory reporter” laws take that choice out of play… the interests of the child are paramount, superior to the interests of the employer organization. An example is that a school might not want it to be known that a teacher has abused kids; they might fire or reassign the teacher and reach a quiet settlement with the parents that includes a confidentiality clause. The teacher is then free to re-offend somewhere else. You might have heard of a certain religious organization that had this problem for a while.)
Call your local TV news producers. This is a story that needs more light. Entitled adults edge kids out of the family areas and then crazed strangers threaten….CPS? That’s a boatload of hassle and everyone knows it.
Call your local TV stations, network affiliates and also Fox and PBS if they exist where you live.
@James Pollock I’ve gotten the line, “If I see you interacting with a child that is socially unacceptable, even if it’s not abusive in any way, I am required to report you to the police.
I’m late on this, but our Y has five locker rooms: Men, Women, Boys, Girls, and Family/Special Needs. The men’s and women’s locker rooms are 18+, no exceptions. Boys and Girls locker rooms can be used by parents with children if the adult is the correct sex for the locker room; a man can take young children of either sex into the boys’ locker room, but they ask that children over 5 either use the correct locker room or that the family uses the family/special needs locker room instead.
My husband has taken our girls to parent/child swim lessons on his own and usually uses the Family/Special Needs locker room because it’s partitioned into separate changing cubicles. He’s taken them into the Boys locker room but says it’s a total zoo on Saturday mornings and the older school-aged/tween kids make him nuts and make a mess of the place. Family/Special needs is quieter and well-kept.
It’s been this way for around 20 years and when we joined we were told that it’s so that the adults can enjoy reasonably calm and quiet locker room facilities without kids running around. The adult-only locker rooms are much nicer in terms of interior finish than the boys and girls locker rooms.